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Someone once asked Martin Luther

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what God was doing before
he created the universe.

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Luther replied,

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cutting switches with which to

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beat people who ask
such questions.

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At another time,

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someone asked Luther
what he would do

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if he knew the world
were to end tomorrow.

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His answer, plant a tree today.

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Now we're not here to celebrate

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the life and thought
of Martin Luther,

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but of another great theologian

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and evangelist, John Wesley.

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Yet Luther's
delightful witticisms

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on protology, first things,

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the things that come
before creation,

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and eschatology, last things,

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the things that come when God

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draws the curtain on creation,

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may serve as a
useful introduction

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to this morning's lecture.

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For human beings have

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a deep curiosity about origins
and about destinations.

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In one of Plato's dialogues,

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Socrates meets a young
friend on the road outside

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Athens and strikes up a
conversation with these words,

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where are you coming from

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Phaedrus and where
are you going?

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These words prove to have

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a deeper significance than

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one suspects at
first because they

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raise the two most
significant questions

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that the subsequent conversation

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wrestles with and that
really all Western

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philosophy and theology have

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wrestled with to some degree,

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the nature of our heritage

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and the purpose of
our pilgrimage.

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Where we have come
from shapes who we

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are and so does what we
await and what we hope for.

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That too shapes who we are.

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But it's very
important when we talk

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about our ancestral origins

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or not to be content with
antiquarian curiosity.

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Or on the other hand,

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to wander off when we talk about

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last things into overheated
apocalyptic speculation.

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Either way, we're at
risk of forgetting

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the concrete practical
question of who we are now,

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what we're about,
what our life is for,

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what our conduct ought to be.

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This was a matter
that John Wesley,

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a thoroughly
practical theologian

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in every sense of the word,

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was deeply sensitive to.

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He never forgot that.

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This brings us to this
morning's lecture.

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Dr. Randy Maddox,

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Paul T. Walls Professor
of Wesley theology,

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has dedicated much of

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his extraordinary career to

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showing in exhaustive detail and

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with great thoroughness
the implications of

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the fact that John Wesley was

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a practical theologian
from beginning to end.

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That his theology, whether

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pointing back or
pointing forward,

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was always ultimately
about how Christians must

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conduct themselves as
the children of God,

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as the brothers and sisters of

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Christ in the here and now,

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where our life of
discipleship is all about.

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These are the
themes, last things

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and Wesley's particular slant on

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them that Dr. Maddox
will speak to

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us about today in
his lecture titled,

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and I want to get
this elegant title

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exactly correct, Left behind?

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Or Right Ahead.

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A Wesleyan perspective on

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eschatology and the
difference it makes.

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Please join me in welcoming

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him.

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Thank you Rick for that
fine introduction.

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As you can tell, we have
many on our staff who

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could hold a chair
in Wesleyan studies.

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It's my privilege to hold
that chair at the moment.

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Let me add my word of
thanks to the family as

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well that has helped to
provide the support for that.

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As you are coming
in, I hope that you

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received a handout that I'll be

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using as a guide as we

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go along in this
morning's lecture.

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I must confess something though.

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I was talking to one
of the persons who

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had picked up the
handout already and they

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looked at it and were

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disappointed because
they didn't see

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my map of the end times
as one of the pages.

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Well, the reality is

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that I make available
to you for a small fee.

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Some of you

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who were here last year
may remember that I began

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last year's lecture
with a true confession.

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I confess that when
I travel around

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the country sitting in
airplanes next to folk,

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I tend not to tell them
that I'm a theologian

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because they have all
these preconceptions

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about what theologians are like.

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Well, let me begin this time
with a reverse confession.

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When I gather with my
professional colleagues,

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professional Bible
scholars and theologians,

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I tend not to tell
them that I've

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read the entire
Left Behind series.

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Why not? Well,

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in fact, this summer
we had a meeting,

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it's a meeting held once
every five years of

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those in the broad Wesleyan
and Methodist traditions

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who teach theology,

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biblical studies,

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other disciplines from
around the world,

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250 of us gathered at Oxford.

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The theme was Wesley's
views on new creation,

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which include
eschatology and I gave

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a lecture on Wesley's
views on eschatology.

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I mentioned in that
something about

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the Left Behind series
and afterwards I got

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a series of comments
about you've

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really spent so much time

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reading all of those when

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there's so many other
good books to read.

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One who even asked
me, would Wesley

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spend time reading those?

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That question,

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I want to come back to

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because I want to answer
yes and then explain why.

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But I want to spend
just a little time

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first reflecting
on that question.

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Why is it so that those who
are trained professionally,

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who are the experts
in the languages,

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that scripture is
written in originally,

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those who are trained
in the history of

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the Christian tradition
and doctrine,

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why is it that
they might tend to

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dismiss a series
like Left Behind?

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Well, those of you who
teach psychology here

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or the amateur psychologists
in our midst might say,

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well, it's just because of envy.

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After all, the Left
Behind series topped

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the best sellers list last year.

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Some of the volumes have

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over eight million
copies in print.

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There's a total of over
36 million copies.

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Now I can tell you my book on

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Wesley has sold pretty well,

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but it's nowhere near there.

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Academic books don't

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sell that way, but I think
it's more than that.

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If you want to by the way
look at that phenomenon,

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it's made Time
Magazine and I put

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on your handout the article
in Time Magazine this summer,

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Apocalypse Now
describing the series

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and the impact it's had.

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But I think there's
also some good reasons,

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reasons most of us are familiar

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with and that I'll
just hit in passing

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why scholars may tend

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to perhaps too quickly
dismiss the series.

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One of the things
is they're well

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aware that there's
a long history of

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folk through the whole
age of the Church.

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In every century about,

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you can find someone
who's found the code,

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figured out the meanings,

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and is telling the public,

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here's what it's all about.

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Actually, on the
bibliography on the back,

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if you want to read a
little of that history,

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the book by Wainwright takes
you through a nice sketch of

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it and you can see how many
times they've been clear.

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They've even set
the dates we're in

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the last times and
they've come up wrong.

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I think partly they're
just weary of the string.

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When do we learn? It's clear
that you could respond well,

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these are just novels.

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They're not trying
to be saying we're

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certain things serious,
they're just novels,

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but it's also clear
when you read them that

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the authors really want you

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to see that they
think they're right.

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In fact, if you'll look at

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the book that
LaHaye has written,

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Are We Living In The End Times?

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He argues specifically that

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because of the new advances
in some of his studies,

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he thinks he's finally reached

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the right conclusion and he's

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convinced these are
the last times.

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I think part of it
is that weariness

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with seeing so many examples.

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Part of it I think also is

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the suggestion that perhaps
this reading is new,

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that somehow what
they're giving is

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just the literal Bible the
way they're seeing it because

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finally they've gotten out of

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the presuppositions and
just looking at the text.

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Yet scholars are well
aware that what we get in

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the Left Behind series is
not a new interpretation.

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It's a fairly standard
form of premillennialism,

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particularly what we
call dispensational

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premillennialism, which
is new in one way.

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It has never been existent in

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the history of the
Church until about 1900.

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It's relatively modern,

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but it's been around
about 100 years.

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In fact, there's actually
been a history in

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the United States
of rapture novels.

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There has been a series of folks

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who've wrote stories about

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the rapture and folk taken

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away and what those left behind.

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If you want to look at
a very perceptive study

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of these and showing how they

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change over time and
reflect the culture of

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the author and the
culture of the audience,

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the book by Amy
Frykholm on your list.

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Actually, it's only
the dissertation now.

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Oxford will be publishing
that early next year in

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book form and it's a
marvelous study of that.

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Again, I think
scholars are aware.

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This is in the tradition.

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We've heard it before.

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Let's read things that are new.

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They're also aware that some

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of the things that
are presented as

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just the literal reading of

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scripture you could
ask questions about.

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Is that so obviously literal?

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Here I would point
you to the book by

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Craig Hill on your bibliography.

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If you want to see a book that

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would give you a good
sense of what are some of

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the things that are presented as

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literal that there
are reasons to

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question this book which is
due out early next month,

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will be the most recent
up-to-date study of those written

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very much for a broad audience

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and I think a very
readable text.

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Or to take just one
specific example,

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the central idea
to the whole Left

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Behind series is that
there's a rapture.

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That there's going to be a
time when as planes fly along,

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pilots will suddenly disappear,

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or people in the
plane will disappear.

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Fortunately for our story,

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the plane that it starts with,

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it's not the pilots that
disappear or we would never

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have the ones on board
telling the story later.

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But where do we get
this idea of rapture?

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Well, it comes from one word
used in 1st Thessalonians.

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If you want to look
at studies of that,

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00:11:30,460 --> 00:11:32,695
and I put a couple on
your bibliography,

263
00:11:32,695 --> 00:11:35,500
an article more technical
by Michael Cosby,

264
00:11:35,500 --> 00:11:39,050
a more popular, very
readable one by NT Wright.

265
00:11:39,050 --> 00:11:41,070
What they'll point out is the
word that's used there in

266
00:11:41,070 --> 00:11:43,125
Thessalonians is a
very common word,

267
00:11:43,125 --> 00:11:44,760
and we can look at how it's used

268
00:11:44,760 --> 00:11:46,305
not only in the
biblical material,

269
00:11:46,305 --> 00:11:48,165
where it's only
used this one time,

270
00:11:48,165 --> 00:11:50,820
but more broadly and in
the surrounding material.

271
00:11:50,820 --> 00:11:52,970
It always means the same thing.

272
00:11:52,970 --> 00:11:54,670
It has to do with
how you receive

273
00:11:54,670 --> 00:11:56,935
a dignitary when they
come to visit your city.

274
00:11:56,935 --> 00:11:58,780
That when somebody really
important is coming,

275
00:11:58,780 --> 00:12:01,225
you don't wait inside the
gate for them to come in,

276
00:12:01,225 --> 00:12:03,670
you go outside the gate and
welcome them on the outside,

277
00:12:03,670 --> 00:12:05,395
and then you escort them in,

278
00:12:05,395 --> 00:12:08,455
like they did with Jesus
in the triumphal entry.

279
00:12:08,455 --> 00:12:10,390
But there's no
suggestion at all that

280
00:12:10,390 --> 00:12:12,220
somehow you stay
out there awhile.

281
00:12:12,220 --> 00:12:15,205
It's an immediate
reception and bringing in.

282
00:12:15,205 --> 00:12:17,350
Biblical scholars would
suggest they simply

283
00:12:17,350 --> 00:12:19,390
don't see anything in the text

284
00:12:19,390 --> 00:12:20,950
that suggests that there will be

285
00:12:20,950 --> 00:12:24,070
this seven-and-half
period rapture.

286
00:12:24,070 --> 00:12:26,590
I would have to admit
from my reading,

287
00:12:26,590 --> 00:12:27,760
that's the vast majority of

288
00:12:27,760 --> 00:12:29,215
biblical scholars are convinced,

289
00:12:29,215 --> 00:12:31,120
this is the way to read it.

290
00:12:31,120 --> 00:12:34,270
But my point is not really in

291
00:12:34,270 --> 00:12:37,660
this lecture to reflect upon
those technical questions.

292
00:12:37,660 --> 00:12:39,700
I happen to be
persuaded by them,

293
00:12:39,700 --> 00:12:41,350
others might not be,

294
00:12:41,350 --> 00:12:45,130
about what does the Bible
say about the rapture?

295
00:12:45,130 --> 00:12:47,290
But I'm really interested

296
00:12:47,290 --> 00:12:49,420
in a more interesting question,

297
00:12:49,420 --> 00:12:50,740
it seems to me,
that comes back to

298
00:12:50,740 --> 00:12:52,719
this question of
practical theology.

299
00:12:52,719 --> 00:12:54,265
Maybe it comes
from the fact that

300
00:12:54,265 --> 00:12:55,540
in addition to John Wesley,

301
00:12:55,540 --> 00:12:58,390
one of my favorite
theologians is Snoopy.

302
00:12:58,390 --> 00:13:00,700
Are you aware that

303
00:13:00,700 --> 00:13:03,670
Snoopy has written two
books on theology?

304
00:13:03,670 --> 00:13:06,520
If you read the whole series,
you'll find two books.

305
00:13:06,520 --> 00:13:08,290
One is titled, Have
You Ever Stopped

306
00:13:08,290 --> 00:13:10,940
to Think You Might be Wrong?

307
00:13:11,130 --> 00:13:13,150
In eschatology, that's a

308
00:13:13,150 --> 00:13:14,800
great question to
ask, excuse me.

309
00:13:14,800 --> 00:13:17,110
How would we know?

310
00:13:17,110 --> 00:13:22,750
That's what I want
us to think about.

311
00:13:22,750 --> 00:13:25,540
But the other one
asks the question,

312
00:13:25,540 --> 00:13:29,410
so what difference does it make?

313
00:13:29,410 --> 00:13:32,680
You see, my sense is when
my scholarly friends say,

314
00:13:32,680 --> 00:13:34,135
why are you reading that book,

315
00:13:34,135 --> 00:13:36,160
they're really making
two assumptions.

316
00:13:36,160 --> 00:13:37,870
Number 1, is they're assuming

317
00:13:37,870 --> 00:13:41,140
popular literature
doesn't have much impact.

318
00:13:41,140 --> 00:13:44,200
Deal with serious stuff.

319
00:13:44,200 --> 00:13:47,035
Number 2, they're
assuming an eschatology

320
00:13:47,035 --> 00:13:48,970
is a marginal doctrine,

321
00:13:48,970 --> 00:13:51,430
deal with the central claims.

322
00:13:51,430 --> 00:13:53,860
This is where I
think John Wesley

323
00:13:53,860 --> 00:13:56,455
would dramatically disagree.

324
00:13:56,455 --> 00:13:58,780
If you haven't read
John Wesley already,

325
00:13:58,780 --> 00:14:00,160
you sure would have,

326
00:14:00,160 --> 00:14:03,985
and then he would have
argued with them a little.

327
00:14:03,985 --> 00:14:06,370
Why? Because one of the things

328
00:14:06,370 --> 00:14:08,320
Wesley was very convinced of is

329
00:14:08,320 --> 00:14:11,050
that the most basic
theological convictions

330
00:14:11,050 --> 00:14:12,505
that most of us live
our lives out of,

331
00:14:12,505 --> 00:14:14,590
we don't get from
reading textbooks and

332
00:14:14,590 --> 00:14:18,295
theology or fine
scholarly articles,

333
00:14:18,295 --> 00:14:21,280
we get from those materials
that are the most accessible

334
00:14:21,280 --> 00:14:24,640
and the most repeatedly
imprinted upon our lives.

335
00:14:24,640 --> 00:14:26,020
He was convinced, for example,

336
00:14:26,020 --> 00:14:27,700
it comes to our
worship and liturgy,

337
00:14:27,700 --> 00:14:29,395
it comes through
the hymns we sing,

338
00:14:29,395 --> 00:14:31,480
it comes through the biographies

339
00:14:31,480 --> 00:14:33,115
we read of the great saints,

340
00:14:33,115 --> 00:14:36,100
which is why he published
hundreds of these.

341
00:14:36,100 --> 00:14:39,460
The biographies, the
hymns, and other forms.

342
00:14:39,460 --> 00:14:41,860
He's not at all
against publishing for

343
00:14:41,860 --> 00:14:44,620
the mass media because

344
00:14:44,620 --> 00:14:45,955
that's how you get
the message out,

345
00:14:45,955 --> 00:14:48,680
that's how you
engage the culture.

346
00:14:50,010 --> 00:14:54,729
He's also convinced
eschatology really matters.

347
00:14:54,729 --> 00:14:57,400
Thus, while he
would've, I think,

348
00:14:57,400 --> 00:15:00,070
celebrated the success
in one sense of

349
00:15:00,070 --> 00:15:01,480
the Left Behind series
because they are

350
00:15:01,480 --> 00:15:03,470
engaging the masses,

351
00:15:03,470 --> 00:15:05,460
I want to suggest to you
today, he would raise

352
00:15:05,460 --> 00:15:06,840
some really serious questions

353
00:15:06,840 --> 00:15:09,435
because he would've
suggested to them,

354
00:15:09,435 --> 00:15:12,370
but you're carrying
the wrong message.

355
00:15:12,420 --> 00:15:16,180
Now, what I want
to do is just ask,

356
00:15:16,180 --> 00:15:17,710
is there more than one message?

357
00:15:17,710 --> 00:15:19,525
What are those differences?

358
00:15:19,525 --> 00:15:21,205
What difference would it make?

359
00:15:21,205 --> 00:15:22,390
What I wanted to
do is, I want to

360
00:15:22,390 --> 00:15:24,355
put the Left Behind series,

361
00:15:24,355 --> 00:15:27,010
and John Wesley in dialogue.

362
00:15:27,010 --> 00:15:29,500
Not necessarily to
try to prove in

363
00:15:29,500 --> 00:15:32,020
some absolute sense one's
right and the other's wrong,

364
00:15:32,020 --> 00:15:34,900
I just want you to see
the difference it makes.

365
00:15:34,900 --> 00:15:38,110
It's part of your larger
reflection upon the issue.

366
00:15:38,110 --> 00:15:42,065
I want to start that first
by addressing the question,

367
00:15:42,065 --> 00:15:43,740
what is the purpose
of eschatology?

368
00:15:43,740 --> 00:15:45,540
What does eschatology do?

369
00:15:45,540 --> 00:15:47,115
The way I have it
on your outline,

370
00:15:47,115 --> 00:15:50,595
there is that eschatology
embodies our convictions

371
00:15:50,595 --> 00:15:55,325
about how and when God's
victory will come.

372
00:15:55,325 --> 00:15:58,060
At the root, eschatology
is this question,

373
00:15:58,060 --> 00:16:00,400
when is God really
going to bring about

374
00:16:00,400 --> 00:16:03,790
more of that piece,

375
00:16:03,790 --> 00:16:07,405
that justice, that
wholeness, that wellness,

376
00:16:07,405 --> 00:16:11,140
that shalom, that way
God wants things to be,

377
00:16:11,140 --> 00:16:13,180
when is that going to happen?

378
00:16:13,180 --> 00:16:16,825
That's a central core
of the biblical story.

379
00:16:16,825 --> 00:16:18,850
The hardest scriptures
is the sense,

380
00:16:18,850 --> 00:16:21,520
things right now aren't the
way they're supposed to be.

381
00:16:21,520 --> 00:16:23,470
Or there's a lot of
good we celebrate,

382
00:16:23,470 --> 00:16:25,900
but there's also a
lot of suffering,

383
00:16:25,900 --> 00:16:27,940
a lot of abuse,

384
00:16:27,940 --> 00:16:29,740
lot of ways in which we fall

385
00:16:29,740 --> 00:16:32,125
far short of what
God wants for us.

386
00:16:32,125 --> 00:16:33,790
The biblical conviction is,

387
00:16:33,790 --> 00:16:37,195
God isn't going to
leave it this way.

388
00:16:37,195 --> 00:16:40,000
But when you look particularly
in the Old Testament,

389
00:16:40,000 --> 00:16:42,160
you tend to get two
different answers

390
00:16:42,160 --> 00:16:43,960
or two different dimensions
to the question,

391
00:16:43,960 --> 00:16:45,940
when is God going to change it?

392
00:16:45,940 --> 00:16:48,475
How is this change
going to work?

393
00:16:48,475 --> 00:16:50,650
One of the answers is
the one that you get

394
00:16:50,650 --> 00:16:53,485
in a passage like in Isaiah 65.

395
00:16:53,485 --> 00:16:55,630
That marvelous passage,
where God says,

396
00:16:55,630 --> 00:16:58,945
"I'm about to create new
heavens and a new earth."

397
00:16:58,945 --> 00:17:01,630
Former things will not
be remembered, etc.

398
00:17:01,630 --> 00:17:03,610
But this creation
is not something

399
00:17:03,610 --> 00:17:05,620
where the old ones pass
in away and the new one

400
00:17:05,620 --> 00:17:07,570
comes into being God's time
about what God's going to

401
00:17:07,570 --> 00:17:09,850
create in this
heavens and earth.

402
00:17:09,850 --> 00:17:12,250
We're going to become a
place where no longer do you

403
00:17:12,250 --> 00:17:14,740
plant your field and
somebody else reaps it.

404
00:17:14,740 --> 00:17:18,070
No longer does, is
they're killing,

405
00:17:18,070 --> 00:17:20,200
no longer do you die young,

406
00:17:20,200 --> 00:17:22,270
where we will live on
our life and fullness,

407
00:17:22,270 --> 00:17:24,370
where even lion and lamb
will lie down together,

408
00:17:24,370 --> 00:17:25,720
but it's very much
in this world.

409
00:17:25,720 --> 00:17:27,520
People are still
born in and die.

410
00:17:27,520 --> 00:17:30,295
It's not eternal life that
Isaiah is talking about.

411
00:17:30,295 --> 00:17:32,320
It's about a fullness to life in

412
00:17:32,320 --> 00:17:35,090
this world as God intended it.

413
00:17:35,460 --> 00:17:39,145
By contrast, when you get
over to the book of Daniel,

414
00:17:39,145 --> 00:17:41,245
you begin to get a
very different vision.

415
00:17:41,245 --> 00:17:42,775
A vision that tends to say,

416
00:17:42,775 --> 00:17:46,060
this world is so corrupt.

417
00:17:46,060 --> 00:17:48,700
It has so much negativity in it,

418
00:17:48,700 --> 00:17:51,100
that there's no way
to just clean it up.

419
00:17:51,100 --> 00:17:56,155
What needs to happen is
basically totally redo it,

420
00:17:56,155 --> 00:17:59,455
burn it up and start over.

421
00:17:59,455 --> 00:18:02,410
When it starts over, it's
not just for those who will

422
00:18:02,410 --> 00:18:04,405
get the privilege of
living in the future life,

423
00:18:04,405 --> 00:18:05,860
it needs to be also for

424
00:18:05,860 --> 00:18:08,155
those who've suffered
in this present life.

425
00:18:08,155 --> 00:18:10,030
That's the core values
of Daniel, by the way,

426
00:18:10,030 --> 00:18:12,430
that it's not enough just to
have a better future because

427
00:18:12,430 --> 00:18:15,355
that doesn't compensate those
who suffered in the past.

428
00:18:15,355 --> 00:18:18,280
The idea of resurrection
comes in and Daniel talks,

429
00:18:18,280 --> 00:18:20,140
for example, in Chapter 12,

430
00:18:20,140 --> 00:18:22,870
verse 13, about that hope
about when you shall

431
00:18:22,870 --> 00:18:27,410
rise for your reward in
the end of the days.

432
00:18:27,990 --> 00:18:31,405
Now, that sets up an
interesting tension.

433
00:18:31,405 --> 00:18:34,240
Jewish scholars, those
that were reading

434
00:18:34,240 --> 00:18:35,950
the Hebrew Bible even before

435
00:18:35,950 --> 00:18:38,140
the time of Christ
saw this tension.

436
00:18:38,140 --> 00:18:41,065
Who's right about how in
God's going to bring victory?

437
00:18:41,065 --> 00:18:44,140
Is it Isaiah who sees it
as a transformation within

438
00:18:44,140 --> 00:18:46,180
this history of this world in

439
00:18:46,180 --> 00:18:48,685
some way that brings a
greater peace and justice?

440
00:18:48,685 --> 00:18:50,350
Or is it Daniel who says, "No,

441
00:18:50,350 --> 00:18:51,910
this world can't be changed,

442
00:18:51,910 --> 00:18:54,115
it's got to be
destroyed and remade."

443
00:18:54,115 --> 00:18:56,740
Do we put our hope primarily
in things that are

444
00:18:56,740 --> 00:19:00,385
happening in the
present for now?

445
00:19:00,385 --> 00:19:02,770
Or is our hope really
only for what will

446
00:19:02,770 --> 00:19:06,010
be the other side of
this whole creation?

447
00:19:06,010 --> 00:19:09,100
Or is there a way to
hold them together?

448
00:19:09,100 --> 00:19:12,250
What developed in Judaism even
before the time of Christ,

449
00:19:12,250 --> 00:19:13,660
where at least some
who were suggesting

450
00:19:13,660 --> 00:19:16,135
a model where both are true.

451
00:19:16,135 --> 00:19:19,450
We live in a time when we
don't yet see that fullness,

452
00:19:19,450 --> 00:19:23,409
there'll come through the
work of God an establishment

453
00:19:23,409 --> 00:19:27,655
of a time of peace and justice
like Isaiah describes,

454
00:19:27,655 --> 00:19:29,665
but this time is only temporary.

455
00:19:29,665 --> 00:19:32,725
It will last a thousand years,

456
00:19:32,725 --> 00:19:35,409
and there's where we get
the word millennium.

457
00:19:35,409 --> 00:19:37,825
Millennium just means thousand.

458
00:19:37,825 --> 00:19:41,605
After that, we'll have
the time of Daniel when

459
00:19:41,605 --> 00:19:46,225
this whole creation is
remade in dramatic ways,

460
00:19:46,225 --> 00:19:51,080
all are raised and we go into
the future of eternal life.

461
00:19:51,960 --> 00:19:56,140
Well, Christians
inherit that model.

462
00:19:56,140 --> 00:19:57,430
Not all accept it because it was

463
00:19:57,430 --> 00:19:58,960
not all accepted in Judaism,

464
00:19:58,960 --> 00:20:00,670
but they inherit that
suggestion of the millennium,

465
00:20:00,670 --> 00:20:02,080
we get it in one text in

466
00:20:02,080 --> 00:20:04,820
the New Testament in the
Book of Revelations.

467
00:20:04,890 --> 00:20:07,660
But for Christians, it brings

468
00:20:07,660 --> 00:20:09,820
an interesting new dimension

469
00:20:09,820 --> 00:20:12,190
because we've
experienced the life of

470
00:20:12,190 --> 00:20:14,620
Christ and we've had
to struggle through

471
00:20:14,620 --> 00:20:17,530
the recognition that
while the Old Testament

472
00:20:17,530 --> 00:20:18,880
suggested that when the Messiah

473
00:20:18,880 --> 00:20:20,650
comes everything will
be transformed and

474
00:20:20,650 --> 00:20:24,325
will be into an age like that
of Isaiah when he comes,

475
00:20:24,325 --> 00:20:27,860
when Jesus came,
that didn't happen.

476
00:20:27,860 --> 00:20:29,640
We didn't go into a time of

477
00:20:29,640 --> 00:20:31,560
perfect peace and justice, etc.

478
00:20:31,560 --> 00:20:33,570
We begin to talk about Christ's

479
00:20:33,570 --> 00:20:36,090
first coming is one in weakness,

480
00:20:36,090 --> 00:20:40,820
but Christ's second coming
will be one in great power.

481
00:20:40,820 --> 00:20:42,970
That raises the question,
well, how's his

482
00:20:42,970 --> 00:20:45,495
second coming relate
to this millennium?

483
00:20:45,495 --> 00:20:47,795
What we've gotten into
history of Christianity,

484
00:20:47,795 --> 00:20:49,160
or what I'm going
to look at briefly

485
00:20:49,160 --> 00:20:50,570
as three different models.

486
00:20:50,570 --> 00:20:52,475
Really central to the model is,

487
00:20:52,475 --> 00:20:54,920
do you think there's going to
be this period of peace and

488
00:20:54,920 --> 00:20:57,440
justice here before the
new heavens and new earth,

489
00:20:57,440 --> 00:21:00,710
and how does the coming
of Christ relate to that?

490
00:21:00,710 --> 00:21:02,630
What I want you to see or not,

491
00:21:02,630 --> 00:21:03,740
the exegetical issues,

492
00:21:03,740 --> 00:21:05,585
which versus would
prove which or what,

493
00:21:05,585 --> 00:21:07,415
I want you to see
what's the outcome,

494
00:21:07,415 --> 00:21:08,960
what difference does
it make if you say,

495
00:21:08,960 --> 00:21:12,170
well, Christ has to come
back before the millennium,

496
00:21:12,170 --> 00:21:14,040
what we'll call
premillennialism,

497
00:21:14,040 --> 00:21:17,665
or Christ has to come back
after postmillennialism.

498
00:21:17,665 --> 00:21:19,590
The most interesting
way to see that,

499
00:21:19,590 --> 00:21:22,055
I think, is to watch
church history.

500
00:21:22,055 --> 00:21:25,550
The earliest Christian
communities were

501
00:21:25,550 --> 00:21:28,580
predominantly what we would
call here premillennialist.

502
00:21:28,580 --> 00:21:31,150
Why?

503
00:21:31,150 --> 00:21:33,760
Remember the status of
early Christianity.

504
00:21:33,760 --> 00:21:35,440
You're a very small group in

505
00:21:35,440 --> 00:21:36,490
a culture where you're not

506
00:21:36,490 --> 00:21:38,380
accepted, indeed your outlawed.

507
00:21:38,380 --> 00:21:41,680
You have to function as
an underground religion,

508
00:21:41,680 --> 00:21:44,620
at times you're even
being put to death by

509
00:21:44,620 --> 00:21:47,755
the powers that be the
Roman government, etc.

510
00:21:47,755 --> 00:21:49,870
There's not much of a
sense when you look out in

511
00:21:49,870 --> 00:21:51,430
the world that the purposes of

512
00:21:51,430 --> 00:21:53,305
God that were shown in Christ

513
00:21:53,305 --> 00:21:55,735
are fulfilled in the
world around us,

514
00:21:55,735 --> 00:21:58,090
and not much of a
sense that you as

515
00:21:58,090 --> 00:21:59,530
a small little church

516
00:21:59,530 --> 00:22:01,870
can make much difference
in the world.

517
00:22:01,870 --> 00:22:03,685
If this world is
going to change,

518
00:22:03,685 --> 00:22:05,590
it's going to take more than
our church just getting a

519
00:22:05,590 --> 00:22:08,110
little bit bigger or becoming
a little more vocal,

520
00:22:08,110 --> 00:22:10,030
or getting a little more
involved in politics.

521
00:22:10,030 --> 00:22:11,950
It's going to take
something as dramatic as

522
00:22:11,950 --> 00:22:15,925
the skies opening and Christ
descending and power,

523
00:22:15,925 --> 00:22:19,975
and thus that view of
pre-millennialism.

524
00:22:19,975 --> 00:22:22,150
See they're convinced
God wants that

525
00:22:22,150 --> 00:22:24,460
to be a reality in this life,

526
00:22:24,460 --> 00:22:26,935
but it can't happen yet.

527
00:22:26,935 --> 00:22:31,134
The primary message for us
is wait until he comes.

528
00:22:31,134 --> 00:22:35,620
Not much stress on get involved
in making it real now,

529
00:22:35,620 --> 00:22:38,210
and it fits the time.

530
00:22:39,200 --> 00:22:43,610
But think of the switch that
comes as the church grows.

531
00:22:43,610 --> 00:22:47,110
By the time you get to the
fifth century, the 400s,

532
00:22:47,110 --> 00:22:48,580
Christianity has gone from being

533
00:22:48,580 --> 00:22:50,830
an outlawed small
group to be now

534
00:22:50,830 --> 00:22:53,965
the required religion
of the Roman Empire.

535
00:22:53,965 --> 00:22:57,100
Now the church is established,

536
00:22:57,100 --> 00:22:58,555
it's funded by the state.

537
00:22:58,555 --> 00:22:59,920
They're building great churches,

538
00:22:59,920 --> 00:23:02,650
they're building institutions,

539
00:23:02,650 --> 00:23:07,910
masses are pouring into
the church in numbers.

540
00:23:08,730 --> 00:23:11,230
What happens in that context

541
00:23:11,230 --> 00:23:12,715
if you say, when I look around,

542
00:23:12,715 --> 00:23:15,280
I don't see the purposes of
God being worked out and I

543
00:23:15,280 --> 00:23:18,655
think we have to instead wait
until Christ really comes.

544
00:23:18,655 --> 00:23:21,265
Well, suddenly you're
a critic of the state,

545
00:23:21,265 --> 00:23:23,305
suddenly your critic
of the church,

546
00:23:23,305 --> 00:23:25,825
which is why in 431,

547
00:23:25,825 --> 00:23:32,485
well it was declared a heresy
to teach pre-millennialism.

548
00:23:32,485 --> 00:23:34,930
Because suddenly
it's the leaders

549
00:23:34,930 --> 00:23:36,700
of the church that
you're critical of,

550
00:23:36,700 --> 00:23:38,620
and it's the adequacy of

551
00:23:38,620 --> 00:23:41,560
the church that you're
saying is the problem.

552
00:23:41,560 --> 00:23:44,470
Pre-millennialism will
actually be outlawed

553
00:23:44,470 --> 00:23:45,490
starting in the fifth century

554
00:23:45,490 --> 00:23:47,215
and will basically disappear.

555
00:23:47,215 --> 00:23:48,820
You find it in a few
fringe groups until

556
00:23:48,820 --> 00:23:51,335
we get to the time
of the reformation.

557
00:23:51,335 --> 00:23:53,940
Now what replaces it
interesting is actually

558
00:23:53,940 --> 00:23:55,980
a view that we call
a millennialism

559
00:23:55,980 --> 00:23:58,215
which means no
millennium because

560
00:23:58,215 --> 00:24:00,600
it's an insistence that says

561
00:24:00,600 --> 00:24:02,250
we don't need to wait until

562
00:24:02,250 --> 00:24:05,425
some future time to have
what God wants to do.

563
00:24:05,425 --> 00:24:07,840
We don't need to wait until
some second coming of

564
00:24:07,840 --> 00:24:10,435
Christ at the end to
have God's justice,

565
00:24:10,435 --> 00:24:12,790
because Christ's second coming

566
00:24:12,790 --> 00:24:15,490
in power has already happened.

567
00:24:15,490 --> 00:24:19,285
But when did Christ second
coming in power happen?

568
00:24:19,285 --> 00:24:22,614
For them, it happened
at the resurrection.

569
00:24:22,614 --> 00:24:25,900
Remember Matthew 28, when

570
00:24:25,900 --> 00:24:28,900
Jesus the resurrected Christ
stands there and says,

571
00:24:28,900 --> 00:24:31,765
"All power and authority
has been given to me,

572
00:24:31,765 --> 00:24:34,120
so go make disciples."

573
00:24:34,120 --> 00:24:36,910
For them, if the
millennium is what's

574
00:24:36,910 --> 00:24:39,160
already going on
in the church age,

575
00:24:39,160 --> 00:24:42,010
Christ is here in power in
and through the church.

576
00:24:42,010 --> 00:24:43,810
Their stress will be, but

577
00:24:43,810 --> 00:24:45,130
it's going to be
an ambiguous time

578
00:24:45,130 --> 00:24:46,360
because while Christ is in power

579
00:24:46,360 --> 00:24:47,650
there's also the forces of evil,

580
00:24:47,650 --> 00:24:50,545
so we'll have this
time of ambiguity,

581
00:24:50,545 --> 00:24:53,170
but we as Christians are
called to be faithful,

582
00:24:53,170 --> 00:24:55,795
to live out the struggle.

583
00:24:55,795 --> 00:24:57,910
But there's a subtle undertone

584
00:24:57,910 --> 00:24:59,410
that becomes very interesting.

585
00:24:59,410 --> 00:25:02,200
If we already have all of

586
00:25:02,200 --> 00:25:03,460
the victory that God's going to

587
00:25:03,460 --> 00:25:05,470
give us for this church age,

588
00:25:05,470 --> 00:25:06,970
then we ought not to be too

589
00:25:06,970 --> 00:25:09,580
critical of either the
government or the church,

590
00:25:09,580 --> 00:25:12,265
we ought to accept
things the way they are.

591
00:25:12,265 --> 00:25:15,175
It does tend to underwrite
the status quo.

592
00:25:15,175 --> 00:25:16,645
It does tend to put down

593
00:25:16,645 --> 00:25:19,900
any strong revolutionary
movements.

594
00:25:19,900 --> 00:25:22,360
Think of the model
for example that this

595
00:25:22,360 --> 00:25:24,745
gets articulated in
somebody like Dante,

596
00:25:24,745 --> 00:25:26,860
with Paradisal and Inferno.

597
00:25:26,860 --> 00:25:29,515
The hope is no longer
for some future age,

598
00:25:29,515 --> 00:25:33,430
the hope is, will I go
up or down at my death?

599
00:25:33,430 --> 00:25:36,190
One of the main
deciding prior period

600
00:25:36,190 --> 00:25:37,840
about whether you
get to go up to

601
00:25:37,840 --> 00:25:41,830
heaven above or you instead
to the inferno below is,

602
00:25:41,830 --> 00:25:44,170
did you live your
life well and that's

603
00:25:44,170 --> 00:25:45,490
often defined in did you live

604
00:25:45,490 --> 00:25:47,135
in terms of your class system?

605
00:25:47,135 --> 00:25:49,650
Were you a good peasant
or did you revolt?

606
00:25:49,650 --> 00:25:51,585
Were you a good king or not?

607
00:25:51,585 --> 00:25:54,075
It reinforced the status quo.

608
00:25:54,075 --> 00:25:57,420
Now that may help you understand
why when the reformation

609
00:25:57,420 --> 00:25:59,220
comes and there's
a lot more reading

610
00:25:59,220 --> 00:26:01,025
of the texts by the lay folk,

611
00:26:01,025 --> 00:26:02,680
those that are on the margins,

612
00:26:02,680 --> 00:26:04,720
particularly those that
are peasants will begin to

613
00:26:04,720 --> 00:26:07,750
reject this and reclaim
a pre-millennialism.

614
00:26:07,750 --> 00:26:09,670
They'll say, the powers we

615
00:26:09,670 --> 00:26:12,265
see are the powers that
are oppressing us.

616
00:26:12,265 --> 00:26:14,590
We want Christ to
come back and change

617
00:26:14,590 --> 00:26:17,620
it. We've got two models.

618
00:26:17,620 --> 00:26:18,820
They're very different
implications

619
00:26:18,820 --> 00:26:20,380
including very different
implications about

620
00:26:20,380 --> 00:26:21,850
what you would
assume we ought to

621
00:26:21,850 --> 00:26:24,385
live like this
Christians in the world.

622
00:26:24,385 --> 00:26:27,010
But I want to bring your
attention to a third one because

623
00:26:27,010 --> 00:26:29,950
this third ones where John
Wesley is going to stand.

624
00:26:29,950 --> 00:26:33,310
The third model is more recent.

625
00:26:33,310 --> 00:26:37,975
We find it hardly at
all until about 1750.

626
00:26:37,975 --> 00:26:41,365
It's a model we call
post-millennialism.

627
00:26:41,365 --> 00:26:43,420
Now if you think of the logic of

628
00:26:43,420 --> 00:26:45,145
that it means they
look for a millennium.

629
00:26:45,145 --> 00:26:46,480
They look for a time
and there really is

630
00:26:46,480 --> 00:26:48,010
going to be peace and justice

631
00:26:48,010 --> 00:26:51,175
and wholeness when everyone
will have turned to Christ,

632
00:26:51,175 --> 00:26:54,280
and because of that there
will be no more war, etc.

633
00:26:54,280 --> 00:26:57,265
But it'll be in the conditions
of this life still.

634
00:26:57,265 --> 00:26:58,540
People be born and die,

635
00:26:58,540 --> 00:27:00,130
etc. It's not our final hope.

636
00:27:00,130 --> 00:27:01,960
Our final hope is the
re-creation when even

637
00:27:01,960 --> 00:27:04,300
those that are dead in
Christ participate,

638
00:27:04,300 --> 00:27:07,255
but it'll be a real-time
of this peace and justice.

639
00:27:07,255 --> 00:27:09,820
Whereas the second
coming for them,

640
00:27:09,820 --> 00:27:13,255
the second coming of Christ
is at the end of that.

641
00:27:13,255 --> 00:27:16,585
You see post millennialism
is a very optimistic view.

642
00:27:16,585 --> 00:27:17,980
It's a view that says,

643
00:27:17,980 --> 00:27:21,355
when Christ ascended from us,

644
00:27:21,355 --> 00:27:23,335
He poured out the Holy Spirit,

645
00:27:23,335 --> 00:27:24,970
and He said through the spirit,

646
00:27:24,970 --> 00:27:27,025
you can do even greater
things than I did,

647
00:27:27,025 --> 00:27:29,365
and He gave them
mission to the church,

648
00:27:29,365 --> 00:27:33,055
that we were to spread
the gospel and work

649
00:27:33,055 --> 00:27:34,825
in the ways Christ
worked until we put

650
00:27:34,825 --> 00:27:37,210
all God's enemies
under our feet.

651
00:27:37,210 --> 00:27:39,490
Then Christ can
come back and hand

652
00:27:39,490 --> 00:27:42,025
the kingdom back to
God, the Father.

653
00:27:42,025 --> 00:27:44,350
It sees the church
age not as one

654
00:27:44,350 --> 00:27:46,540
that's preserve the status quo,

655
00:27:46,540 --> 00:27:48,550
but it's a very optimistic
view that we're to go out,

656
00:27:48,550 --> 00:27:50,620
we're to change the
world and make it

657
00:27:50,620 --> 00:27:53,930
like the vision of Isaiah 65.

658
00:27:55,260 --> 00:27:57,940
If you think about it very long,

659
00:27:57,940 --> 00:27:59,260
it makes sense that
this wouldn't begin

660
00:27:59,260 --> 00:28:01,120
to emerge to about 1750,

661
00:28:01,120 --> 00:28:03,100
because 1750 the enlightenment

662
00:28:03,100 --> 00:28:04,435
all the things that
are happening there,

663
00:28:04,435 --> 00:28:06,490
it's an optimistic time
in Western culture

664
00:28:06,490 --> 00:28:09,505
and it's mainly in Western
culture you find this view.

665
00:28:09,505 --> 00:28:11,425
Science is changing.

666
00:28:11,425 --> 00:28:13,465
We're discovering the
cures to diseases.

667
00:28:13,465 --> 00:28:15,880
Suddenly things that
first centuries have

668
00:28:15,880 --> 00:28:19,045
been undefeatable we can defeat.

669
00:28:19,045 --> 00:28:20,830
We've developed the means of

670
00:28:20,830 --> 00:28:22,390
travel so that we can go out to

671
00:28:22,390 --> 00:28:26,365
the world to evangelize, etc.

672
00:28:26,365 --> 00:28:28,825
What you need to know
is that between about

673
00:28:28,825 --> 00:28:31,270
1800 and 1900 in particular,

674
00:28:31,270 --> 00:28:34,390
essentially every
major protestant

675
00:28:34,390 --> 00:28:36,715
theologian in the Western world,

676
00:28:36,715 --> 00:28:41,270
protestant I said, was
a post millennialist.

677
00:28:42,180 --> 00:28:45,415
Charles Finney, whoever you
mentioned, Jonathan Edwards,

678
00:28:45,415 --> 00:28:48,175
John Wesley, they're
all post millennials.

679
00:28:48,175 --> 00:28:49,270
That is they are people who

680
00:28:49,270 --> 00:28:50,830
believe the spirits that work in

681
00:28:50,830 --> 00:28:52,210
the church and in their movement

682
00:28:52,210 --> 00:28:53,380
and is spreading the gospel,

683
00:28:53,380 --> 00:28:55,270
so if you look at the sermons
I listed that you could

684
00:28:55,270 --> 00:28:58,105
read where you'd get John
Wesley's eschatology.

685
00:28:58,105 --> 00:28:59,980
You get sermons like
the general spread

686
00:28:59,980 --> 00:29:01,210
of the gospel is
just story about how

687
00:29:01,210 --> 00:29:02,920
the Gospel spreading and
it's going to transform

688
00:29:02,920 --> 00:29:04,000
the world and we're
going to move into

689
00:29:04,000 --> 00:29:05,530
this time of peace and justice,

690
00:29:05,530 --> 00:29:07,165
so let's get busy.

691
00:29:07,165 --> 00:29:08,934
His sermon on the new creation,

692
00:29:08,934 --> 00:29:10,765
his sermon on the
signs of the times.

693
00:29:10,765 --> 00:29:13,000
When he preaches the sermon
on the signs of the times,

694
00:29:13,000 --> 00:29:14,590
it's not about looking at
all the disasters that

695
00:29:14,590 --> 00:29:16,330
show Christ is about
to come back is look

696
00:29:16,330 --> 00:29:18,370
at how much progress we're
making that shows that we're

697
00:29:18,370 --> 00:29:21,415
moving into the time
Christ has promised.

698
00:29:21,415 --> 00:29:24,445
It's a highly optimistic vision.

699
00:29:24,445 --> 00:29:26,875
You'll notice though,
that I put there that

700
00:29:26,875 --> 00:29:29,170
post millennialism seems to

701
00:29:29,170 --> 00:29:31,600
end or tends to end about 1920.

702
00:29:31,600 --> 00:29:34,735
Why?

703
00:29:34,735 --> 00:29:36,865
Some of us remember those days.

704
00:29:36,865 --> 00:29:38,575
I read them in history too.

705
00:29:38,575 --> 00:29:40,060
In class, students often say,

706
00:29:40,060 --> 00:29:41,890
I've read about that in
the history book sometime

707
00:29:41,890 --> 00:29:43,825
when I'm talking about some
of those part of my life,

708
00:29:43,825 --> 00:29:45,670
this one I had to read
in the history book,

709
00:29:45,670 --> 00:29:49,090
but some of us remember those
days still in our lives,

710
00:29:49,090 --> 00:29:54,100
even World War I, World War II.

711
00:29:54,100 --> 00:29:58,210
The confidence in human
progress gets an amazing leap

712
00:29:58,210 --> 00:30:02,695
abrupt acts at the roots.

713
00:30:02,695 --> 00:30:05,410
The response of some,

714
00:30:05,410 --> 00:30:07,735
particularly in North America,

715
00:30:07,735 --> 00:30:11,380
in the conservative Protestant
community was to re-adapt

716
00:30:11,380 --> 00:30:13,300
premillennialism and to take

717
00:30:13,300 --> 00:30:15,385
it in even a more extreme form,

718
00:30:15,385 --> 00:30:17,095
what we call dispensationalism.

719
00:30:17,095 --> 00:30:19,180
Now, I'm not going to go
into the details on that.

720
00:30:19,180 --> 00:30:20,620
The book by Stanley Grenz is

721
00:30:20,620 --> 00:30:22,270
a good read if you
want to get at it.

722
00:30:22,270 --> 00:30:25,300
What I want you to see is
just one central application.

723
00:30:25,300 --> 00:30:26,725
What they argued is,

724
00:30:26,725 --> 00:30:29,455
not only should we
not assume like those

725
00:30:29,455 --> 00:30:31,180
optimistic folk did
in the past that

726
00:30:31,180 --> 00:30:32,995
things are going to
get better and better,

727
00:30:32,995 --> 00:30:35,170
we ought to assume they're
actually going to get

728
00:30:35,170 --> 00:30:36,670
worse because things have to

729
00:30:36,670 --> 00:30:38,965
get worse before
Christ can come back.

730
00:30:38,965 --> 00:30:42,085
Some of these premillennialists
leading into World War I,

731
00:30:42,085 --> 00:30:43,795
for example, when the war came,

732
00:30:43,795 --> 00:30:45,760
were saying, see it's
about to happen,

733
00:30:45,760 --> 00:30:48,655
Christ is about to return,
let's get excited.

734
00:30:48,655 --> 00:30:52,360
Then, when humans put
an end to that war by

735
00:30:52,360 --> 00:30:54,205
a negotiated peace and set up

736
00:30:54,205 --> 00:30:56,140
a organization that
they hoped would

737
00:30:56,140 --> 00:30:58,435
prevent war in the
League of Nations,

738
00:30:58,435 --> 00:31:00,340
this group of
pre-millennials were

739
00:31:00,340 --> 00:31:02,590
actually disappointed
because they

740
00:31:02,590 --> 00:31:05,020
thought we had postponed
God's plan that

741
00:31:05,020 --> 00:31:08,035
we were working against
the purposes of God.

742
00:31:08,035 --> 00:31:10,090
The Weber book on your list will

743
00:31:10,090 --> 00:31:12,595
give you the history if
you want to read it.

744
00:31:12,595 --> 00:31:16,300
It's a model that suggests
actually the way you help God

745
00:31:16,300 --> 00:31:20,425
along is by not trying
to make things better.

746
00:31:20,425 --> 00:31:23,570
Very strong contrast.

747
00:31:23,610 --> 00:31:26,230
Now if you reflect on the
history I've given you,

748
00:31:26,230 --> 00:31:27,835
one of the things that
becomes clear is,

749
00:31:27,835 --> 00:31:29,860
why did people choose
one of the positions?

750
00:31:29,860 --> 00:31:31,420
Why were they a
premillennialist?

751
00:31:31,420 --> 00:31:32,890
Why were they anomaly annulus,

752
00:31:32,890 --> 00:31:34,480
which is still the
official position,

753
00:31:34,480 --> 00:31:36,370
for example, of Roman Catholics,

754
00:31:36,370 --> 00:31:39,055
Eastern Orthodox,
Lutheran, reformed?

755
00:31:39,055 --> 00:31:41,755
Why did they become
dispensationalists?

756
00:31:41,755 --> 00:31:43,840
The history would
suggest it had a lot

757
00:31:43,840 --> 00:31:45,565
less to do with exegesis,

758
00:31:45,565 --> 00:31:46,720
just what the tech said,

759
00:31:46,720 --> 00:31:49,285
and a lot more to do
with social situation.

760
00:31:49,285 --> 00:31:52,390
Which worldview seemed
to fit life as you

761
00:31:52,390 --> 00:31:56,590
experienced it? I
think that's right.

762
00:31:56,590 --> 00:31:58,300
I think that there's
actually an essay

763
00:31:58,300 --> 00:32:00,085
by Gunnery on your list that

764
00:32:00,085 --> 00:32:01,750
argues that it's
social conditions that

765
00:32:01,750 --> 00:32:05,060
primarily lead you to
choose your eschatology.

766
00:32:05,850 --> 00:32:08,350
Now, in one sense we
say, well that's good

767
00:32:08,350 --> 00:32:10,630
because it's our theology
that's relevant,

768
00:32:10,630 --> 00:32:12,790
but in another sense,
there's a side of us,

769
00:32:12,790 --> 00:32:15,145
I think at least there's a
side of me that would say,

770
00:32:15,145 --> 00:32:17,290
but I don't want my
theology to be totally

771
00:32:17,290 --> 00:32:19,960
controlled by my
social situation,

772
00:32:19,960 --> 00:32:22,375
because then I never allow God

773
00:32:22,375 --> 00:32:24,775
to address how I
might need to change.

774
00:32:24,775 --> 00:32:27,700
Is there any way I can try to
stand back and say which is

775
00:32:27,700 --> 00:32:30,310
more adequate whether
I liked it or not,

776
00:32:30,310 --> 00:32:32,155
whether it fits or not,

777
00:32:32,155 --> 00:32:35,140
that is a challenge
for me to change?

778
00:32:35,140 --> 00:32:38,845
That leads me to what or
actually the longest section

779
00:32:38,845 --> 00:32:42,280
on the handout though I'll
deal with them rather briefly.

780
00:32:42,280 --> 00:32:44,890
What I want to suggest
to you is that

781
00:32:44,890 --> 00:32:46,780
perhaps the best way to
make decisions about

782
00:32:46,780 --> 00:32:49,555
eschatology is not
to get caught up

783
00:32:49,555 --> 00:32:53,110
primarily in debates about
specific verses or words,

784
00:32:53,110 --> 00:32:55,300
but rather to ask the question,

785
00:32:55,300 --> 00:32:57,670
what is the pattern of

786
00:32:57,670 --> 00:33:00,100
Christian beliefs that
fit the different models?

787
00:33:00,100 --> 00:33:02,080
Because your eschatology
will never be

788
00:33:02,080 --> 00:33:04,600
beliefs just about
winds, the incoming,

789
00:33:04,600 --> 00:33:06,880
it will have embedded
in it, at least about,

790
00:33:06,880 --> 00:33:09,880
what is God-like?
What are we like?

791
00:33:09,880 --> 00:33:11,245
What is salvation?

792
00:33:11,245 --> 00:33:13,855
How does salvation
work out in the world?

793
00:33:13,855 --> 00:33:17,980
To illustrate this, I want
to take us through briefly

794
00:33:17,980 --> 00:33:19,450
The Left Behind series with

795
00:33:19,450 --> 00:33:20,980
some representative
quotes and I'll

796
00:33:20,980 --> 00:33:23,080
parallel them with some
quotes from Wesley.

797
00:33:23,080 --> 00:33:25,870
We're going to watch the
way that a premillennialist

798
00:33:25,870 --> 00:33:29,155
would tend to answer
these questions.

799
00:33:29,155 --> 00:33:31,570
There's never 100
percent agreement,

800
00:33:31,570 --> 00:33:32,920
but on most of these are fairly

801
00:33:32,920 --> 00:33:34,855
characteristic and the way that

802
00:33:34,855 --> 00:33:36,550
Wesley or post-millennials would

803
00:33:36,550 --> 00:33:38,155
tend to answer these questions.

804
00:33:38,155 --> 00:33:39,925
At the end, ask
ourselves the question,

805
00:33:39,925 --> 00:33:42,580
which overall view do

806
00:33:42,580 --> 00:33:45,205
you think resonates best
with the Holy of Scripture?

807
00:33:45,205 --> 00:33:46,840
For me, I find

808
00:33:46,840 --> 00:33:50,770
this the best way to try to
sort out these questions.

809
00:33:50,770 --> 00:33:52,750
If eschatology is so important,

810
00:33:52,750 --> 00:33:54,550
how should we choose?

811
00:33:54,550 --> 00:33:56,500
Look at some examples.

812
00:33:56,500 --> 00:33:57,625
Start by the question,

813
00:33:57,625 --> 00:33:59,140
how would you understand
the meaning of

814
00:33:59,140 --> 00:34:01,720
salvation on these
different models?

815
00:34:01,720 --> 00:34:03,760
Here I think the Left Behind

816
00:34:03,760 --> 00:34:06,265
novel is particularly
the first one is,

817
00:34:06,265 --> 00:34:08,890
exactly right and very

818
00:34:08,890 --> 00:34:11,395
forthcoming in showing
the difference.

819
00:34:11,395 --> 00:34:13,840
Within the first four pages,

820
00:34:13,840 --> 00:34:16,300
you get the woman who's
going to be raptured,

821
00:34:16,300 --> 00:34:18,205
who represents the Christian,

822
00:34:18,205 --> 00:34:20,560
insisting to her husband,

823
00:34:20,560 --> 00:34:23,590
who's going to be left
behind in the pilot refer.

824
00:34:23,590 --> 00:34:29,005
Saved people aren't good
people, just forgiven.

825
00:34:29,005 --> 00:34:32,125
Salvation has to do
just with forgiveness,

826
00:34:32,125 --> 00:34:36,220
not with being people who
always live holy lives.

827
00:34:36,220 --> 00:34:37,840
Now, part of what they're say

828
00:34:37,840 --> 00:34:39,670
there and all Christians
would want to say is,

829
00:34:39,670 --> 00:34:41,350
being a Christian doesn't
require you to always be

830
00:34:41,350 --> 00:34:43,495
perfect, God forgives.

831
00:34:43,495 --> 00:34:45,970
But more central is the idea.

832
00:34:45,970 --> 00:34:48,325
Just as in the world,

833
00:34:48,325 --> 00:34:49,990
the struggle against evil is so

834
00:34:49,990 --> 00:34:52,030
bad that we can't
expect much change.

835
00:34:52,030 --> 00:34:53,935
Also in our lives,

836
00:34:53,935 --> 00:34:56,245
you can't expect
a lot of change.

837
00:34:56,245 --> 00:34:58,945
The good news is God
accepts you anyway.

838
00:34:58,945 --> 00:35:01,780
If you have a stronger
affirmation of the work of

839
00:35:01,780 --> 00:35:03,310
the Holy Spirit and
that the spirit can

840
00:35:03,310 --> 00:35:05,230
change the world,

841
00:35:05,230 --> 00:35:09,040
the spirit can also work
for change in our lives.

842
00:35:09,040 --> 00:35:11,530
It's no accident, Wesley leans

843
00:35:11,530 --> 00:35:13,615
more to the
postmillennialist side,

844
00:35:13,615 --> 00:35:15,370
it comes out of his
doctrine spirit.

845
00:35:15,370 --> 00:35:18,700
Look at Wesley's definition
of salvation by contrast.

846
00:35:18,700 --> 00:35:20,770
By salvation I mean not

847
00:35:20,770 --> 00:35:22,990
barely according to
the vulgar notion,

848
00:35:22,990 --> 00:35:24,985
the way it's popularly
talked about

849
00:35:24,985 --> 00:35:27,310
deliverance from hell
or going to heaven,

850
00:35:27,310 --> 00:35:30,355
but a present
deliverance from sin,

851
00:35:30,355 --> 00:35:33,475
a restoration of the soul
to its primitive health,

852
00:35:33,475 --> 00:35:37,195
its original purity, a
recovery of the divine nature,

853
00:35:37,195 --> 00:35:38,500
the renewal of our souls.

854
00:35:38,500 --> 00:35:40,810
I mean, God actually changes us

855
00:35:40,810 --> 00:35:43,615
here to be ready
for that future.

856
00:35:43,615 --> 00:35:46,705
Just as God works to
change the world here,

857
00:35:46,705 --> 00:35:49,270
even as we wait for
that perfect expression

858
00:35:49,270 --> 00:35:52,645
in the future, it fits.

859
00:35:52,645 --> 00:35:56,199
It's not an accident they
have this difference.

860
00:35:56,199 --> 00:35:59,380
What is salvation like?

861
00:35:59,380 --> 00:36:02,485
Is it only for a few
or is it for all?

862
00:36:02,485 --> 00:36:05,530
Well, particularly
dispensationalism has

863
00:36:05,530 --> 00:36:06,715
tended to be present

864
00:36:06,715 --> 00:36:11,125
only in the reform stream of
the Protestant tradition,

865
00:36:11,125 --> 00:36:12,745
which affirms a doctrine of

866
00:36:12,745 --> 00:36:15,715
unconditional election and
election for only the few.

867
00:36:15,715 --> 00:36:17,770
You see that represented then in

868
00:36:17,770 --> 00:36:20,350
the texts where they
make clear, for example,

869
00:36:20,350 --> 00:36:22,540
in Book 6 that less
than 25 percent

870
00:36:22,540 --> 00:36:24,850
of the world population
had been raptured and they

871
00:36:24,850 --> 00:36:26,080
particularly stress
that there are

872
00:36:26,080 --> 00:36:28,270
very set limits of how

873
00:36:28,270 --> 00:36:31,150
many will convert
during the tribulation.

874
00:36:31,150 --> 00:36:32,785
God has set numbers,

875
00:36:32,785 --> 00:36:35,510
only those ones can be saved.

876
00:36:36,300 --> 00:36:38,710
Now by contrast, Wesley did

877
00:36:38,710 --> 00:36:40,720
not believe everyone
would be saved,

878
00:36:40,720 --> 00:36:42,970
but he did believe
God's grace was

879
00:36:42,970 --> 00:36:45,775
available to everyone so that
everyone could be saved.

880
00:36:45,775 --> 00:36:48,640
It wasn't because of some
numbers you were excluded.

881
00:36:48,640 --> 00:36:50,950
You get a definition instead
of the grace or love

882
00:36:50,950 --> 00:36:52,960
of God from which

883
00:36:52,960 --> 00:36:58,000
comes our salvation is free
in all and free-for-all.

884
00:36:58,000 --> 00:37:01,735
One that I find quite
interesting to WashWood.

885
00:37:01,735 --> 00:37:04,765
What does salvation
do? What's it for?

886
00:37:04,765 --> 00:37:09,670
Is it only for our souls or
is it for the whole of life?

887
00:37:09,670 --> 00:37:11,260
You see, if it's
only forgiveness

888
00:37:11,260 --> 00:37:12,460
it's only getting your soul

889
00:37:12,460 --> 00:37:13,750
ready for when it
gets out of here

890
00:37:13,750 --> 00:37:16,040
to go to a better place.

891
00:37:16,500 --> 00:37:20,335
But if it's for the whole of
life it has to start now.

892
00:37:20,335 --> 00:37:22,825
In the Left Behind series,

893
00:37:22,825 --> 00:37:24,760
it's interesting Book 4 is

894
00:37:24,760 --> 00:37:28,330
titled specifically
Soul Harvest.

895
00:37:28,330 --> 00:37:31,105
Book 8, page 343,

896
00:37:31,105 --> 00:37:32,770
those who have trusted
Christ have been

897
00:37:32,770 --> 00:37:34,330
written in the lands
speaks alive so that

898
00:37:34,330 --> 00:37:36,190
when they die physically
they remain alive

899
00:37:36,190 --> 00:37:38,530
spiritually and are
never blotted out.

900
00:37:38,530 --> 00:37:41,275
It's that spiritual
life that matters.

901
00:37:41,275 --> 00:37:45,710
Nothing about any resurrection
interestingly here.

902
00:37:45,750 --> 00:37:48,250
Notice the contrast in Wesley.

903
00:37:48,250 --> 00:37:50,560
It will be a double
blessing if you

904
00:37:50,560 --> 00:37:53,230
give yourself up to
the great physician,

905
00:37:53,230 --> 00:37:56,740
that he may heal soul
and body together.

906
00:37:56,740 --> 00:37:58,900
Unquestionably this
is God's design

907
00:37:58,900 --> 00:38:00,250
he wants to give you my dear,

908
00:38:00,250 --> 00:38:02,425
Mrs. Knox both inward
and outward health.

909
00:38:02,425 --> 00:38:03,790
God not just interested in

910
00:38:03,790 --> 00:38:05,470
our souls being
healthy in this life,

911
00:38:05,470 --> 00:38:08,080
God also wants greater wholeness

912
00:38:08,080 --> 00:38:11,800
in our bodies and
in our communities.

913
00:38:11,800 --> 00:38:15,475
Will it be perfect? No.

914
00:38:15,475 --> 00:38:18,490
Can through the Spirit
it become better?

915
00:38:18,490 --> 00:38:19,975
Does God want that to be?

916
00:38:19,975 --> 00:38:23,140
Wesley is convinced
the answer is yes.

917
00:38:23,140 --> 00:38:25,960
Is salvation only for

918
00:38:25,960 --> 00:38:28,375
humans or is it for
the whole of creation?

919
00:38:28,375 --> 00:38:30,850
Those of you that may
have come last year to

920
00:38:30,850 --> 00:38:34,135
a lecture I did on C. S.
Lewis and animal salvation,

921
00:38:34,135 --> 00:38:36,700
in premillennialism,
you get what had become

922
00:38:36,700 --> 00:38:38,530
the standard model by

923
00:38:38,530 --> 00:38:40,195
the medieval period in
the Western Churches,

924
00:38:40,195 --> 00:38:42,025
only souls go to heaven.

925
00:38:42,025 --> 00:38:46,060
There's no participation of
creation, no animals, etc.

926
00:38:46,060 --> 00:38:48,040
I have a friend who's

927
00:38:48,040 --> 00:38:50,440
a theologian who was
listening to a radio call-in

928
00:38:50,440 --> 00:38:52,180
show not long ago and

929
00:38:52,180 --> 00:38:54,010
there was a preacher on
it who was explaining

930
00:38:54,010 --> 00:38:59,110
the last times on a model like
LA haze and someone asked,

931
00:38:59,110 --> 00:39:00,205
will animals be in heaven?

932
00:39:00,205 --> 00:39:02,350
His answer was very abrupt.
Well, of course not.

933
00:39:02,350 --> 00:39:03,790
Animals are created only for

934
00:39:03,790 --> 00:39:05,350
human use and in

935
00:39:05,350 --> 00:39:08,330
heaven since we're only
spirits, we won't need them.

936
00:39:08,610 --> 00:39:11,140
But Wesley looks at the world as

937
00:39:11,140 --> 00:39:13,195
a whole is here as God's love,

938
00:39:13,195 --> 00:39:16,390
not just as a place for
souls to live, therefore,

939
00:39:16,390 --> 00:39:17,800
the world as a whole will

940
00:39:17,800 --> 00:39:20,725
participate in the
fullness of salvation.

941
00:39:20,725 --> 00:39:22,570
He actually his sermon,

942
00:39:22,570 --> 00:39:24,954
the General Deliverance
is a sermon on animals

943
00:39:24,954 --> 00:39:28,060
too being part of
the new creation.

944
00:39:28,060 --> 00:39:29,290
What I find interesting

945
00:39:29,290 --> 00:39:30,460
about it is when you
ask the question,

946
00:39:30,460 --> 00:39:32,230
what difference does it make?

947
00:39:32,230 --> 00:39:34,030
Wesley at the end says,

948
00:39:34,030 --> 00:39:35,815
"If God cares about them,

949
00:39:35,815 --> 00:39:40,000
then we ought to care
about them now."

950
00:39:40,000 --> 00:39:43,120
You see your image of
final things is finally

951
00:39:43,120 --> 00:39:45,100
your standard for what
you think ought to

952
00:39:45,100 --> 00:39:47,725
be important things now.

953
00:39:47,725 --> 00:39:50,230
If God doesn't care
just about souls,

954
00:39:50,230 --> 00:39:52,810
but about the whole so are we.

955
00:39:52,810 --> 00:39:54,970
Well, your choice of eschatology

956
00:39:54,970 --> 00:39:56,590
in many ways involves
that question,

957
00:39:56,590 --> 00:39:58,480
what do you think salvation is

958
00:39:58,480 --> 00:40:03,115
for and how real can we
have it already now?

959
00:40:03,115 --> 00:40:09,775
Is it only future or is
it also partly present?

960
00:40:09,775 --> 00:40:13,330
In Left Behind,

961
00:40:13,330 --> 00:40:16,870
Nicolae is the
anti-Christ in this book.

962
00:40:16,870 --> 00:40:18,400
The only one you
ever hear arguing,

963
00:40:18,400 --> 00:40:22,330
we ought to now have
world peace, disarmament,

964
00:40:22,330 --> 00:40:24,280
and global unity is

965
00:40:24,280 --> 00:40:26,200
the anti-Christ because in

966
00:40:26,200 --> 00:40:27,730
their understanding
we'll have that.

967
00:40:27,730 --> 00:40:28,780
Now understand, I'm
not saying they

968
00:40:28,780 --> 00:40:30,265
don't care about these
things, they do.

969
00:40:30,265 --> 00:40:31,990
They think you can only
have these when we get to

970
00:40:31,990 --> 00:40:34,900
the millennium and that those

971
00:40:34,900 --> 00:40:37,090
working for these now
are actually working

972
00:40:37,090 --> 00:40:40,375
against the purposes
is the suggestion.

973
00:40:40,375 --> 00:40:42,520
For Wesley, working
for these things

974
00:40:42,520 --> 00:40:44,470
even now is living in

975
00:40:44,470 --> 00:40:45,970
light of the hope
for what you're

976
00:40:45,970 --> 00:40:48,640
convinced God is trying
to do through the Spirit.

977
00:40:48,640 --> 00:40:51,655
You find Wesley instead
say something like this.

978
00:40:51,655 --> 00:40:53,650
This is in his piece,

979
00:40:53,650 --> 00:40:56,230
he's been asked, what is the
whole goal of Methodism?

980
00:40:56,230 --> 00:40:58,495
What are you after, what kind
of religion do you want?

981
00:40:58,495 --> 00:40:59,740
This is Wesley's answer,

982
00:40:59,740 --> 00:41:01,525
"This is the religion
we long to see

983
00:41:01,525 --> 00:41:03,700
established in the
world," notice,

984
00:41:03,700 --> 00:41:05,530
not just in the
millennium or in heaven,

985
00:41:05,530 --> 00:41:07,570
we want to see
this in the world.

986
00:41:07,570 --> 00:41:09,640
"A religion of love and

987
00:41:09,640 --> 00:41:11,830
joy and peace that
has its seat in

988
00:41:11,830 --> 00:41:14,230
the heart in the inmost soul

989
00:41:14,230 --> 00:41:17,020
and shows itself by its
fruits springing forth,

990
00:41:17,020 --> 00:41:18,985
not only in innocence,"

991
00:41:18,985 --> 00:41:20,770
that is not only
in not doing harm,

992
00:41:20,770 --> 00:41:22,960
but also in all acts
of beneficence,

993
00:41:22,960 --> 00:41:25,240
actively doing good for others,

994
00:41:25,240 --> 00:41:28,105
"spreading virtue and
happiness all around it."

995
00:41:28,105 --> 00:41:33,320
That's what religion's
about, different emphasis.

996
00:41:33,330 --> 00:41:35,440
Now I have several
others on there.

997
00:41:35,440 --> 00:41:36,880
Let me just hit a
couple of them and I'll

998
00:41:36,880 --> 00:41:38,575
leave the rest for you to read.

999
00:41:38,575 --> 00:41:40,270
I put them down
precisely so there'd

1000
00:41:40,270 --> 00:41:43,105
be a chance if you want
to look at them more.

1001
00:41:43,105 --> 00:41:45,610
What's the goal of discipleship?

1002
00:41:45,610 --> 00:41:47,950
Is it just a onetime decision

1003
00:41:47,950 --> 00:41:51,385
or is discipleship about
an ongoing process?

1004
00:41:51,385 --> 00:41:53,695
If you have a model that
history is running by

1005
00:41:53,695 --> 00:41:55,780
a very clear cut and

1006
00:41:55,780 --> 00:41:59,050
determined mechanism and
there can be no changes,

1007
00:41:59,050 --> 00:42:00,310
you could see how
that could also

1008
00:42:00,310 --> 00:42:01,915
happen in your personal life.

1009
00:42:01,915 --> 00:42:04,345
You're in and that's it

1010
00:42:04,345 --> 00:42:06,910
or is it a responsive
relationship?

1011
00:42:06,910 --> 00:42:08,620
Look at the one, what
are we supposed to be

1012
00:42:08,620 --> 00:42:14,035
doing as disciples in terms
of our spiritual disciplines?

1013
00:42:14,035 --> 00:42:16,195
Throughout the Left
Behind series,

1014
00:42:16,195 --> 00:42:18,579
the only thing you
see them encouraging

1015
00:42:18,579 --> 00:42:21,565
one another to do
are study prophecy.

1016
00:42:21,565 --> 00:42:23,860
There's no emphasis on,

1017
00:42:23,860 --> 00:42:25,735
they do pray,

1018
00:42:25,735 --> 00:42:27,835
so you could have
prayer as well.

1019
00:42:27,835 --> 00:42:30,190
But the classic
spiritual disciplines,

1020
00:42:30,190 --> 00:42:33,340
those disciplines of communion

1021
00:42:33,340 --> 00:42:36,235
and all these other things,
they're just not there.

1022
00:42:36,235 --> 00:42:38,770
In fact, one of

1023
00:42:38,770 --> 00:42:40,330
the most interesting
quotes to me when

1024
00:42:40,330 --> 00:42:42,040
I was reading it is in
the most recent book,

1025
00:42:42,040 --> 00:42:44,005
Book 10, Page 300.

1026
00:42:44,005 --> 00:42:45,460
I had been watching to the book

1027
00:42:45,460 --> 00:42:46,630
for emphasis on the Spirit.

1028
00:42:46,630 --> 00:42:48,730
You find almost no Spirit
language in any of

1029
00:42:48,730 --> 00:42:51,025
the volumes and when
it did come finally,

1030
00:42:51,025 --> 00:42:52,870
the question about how
important is it to have

1031
00:42:52,870 --> 00:42:54,175
the fruit of the Spirit
or walk in the Spirit?

1032
00:42:54,175 --> 00:42:55,330
Look the way it said.

1033
00:42:55,330 --> 00:42:59,650
Now, Cyan is the Bible teacher
who's Jewish, who's now,

1034
00:42:59,650 --> 00:43:01,780
he's speaking at this
point to that group

1035
00:43:01,780 --> 00:43:04,015
of Jews who've been
gathered because

1036
00:43:04,015 --> 00:43:05,350
they're three and
half years through

1037
00:43:05,350 --> 00:43:08,320
the rapture that he's
speaking to that are

1038
00:43:08,320 --> 00:43:10,390
most of them now
believers and they're

1039
00:43:10,390 --> 00:43:12,700
just being protected for
this three and half years

1040
00:43:12,700 --> 00:43:14,890
until the end of all of the
turmoil so that then they

1041
00:43:14,890 --> 00:43:17,530
can enjoy the second
coming of Christ.

1042
00:43:17,530 --> 00:43:19,900
He for the first time mentions

1043
00:43:19,900 --> 00:43:22,240
the importance of maybe
trying to walk in the Spirit.

1044
00:43:22,240 --> 00:43:23,605
But notice his reason,

1045
00:43:23,605 --> 00:43:25,600
if we could all learn
to walk in the Spirit,

1046
00:43:25,600 --> 00:43:26,920
we would have an
easier time getting

1047
00:43:26,920 --> 00:43:29,680
along for two and
half more years.

1048
00:43:29,680 --> 00:43:31,750
In other words, it's not seen as

1049
00:43:31,750 --> 00:43:33,774
central to what
salvation is about,

1050
00:43:33,774 --> 00:43:36,020
but it would be nice.

1051
00:43:38,460 --> 00:43:41,410
Wesley, by contrast, sees it as

1052
00:43:41,410 --> 00:43:44,545
the whole heart and soul of
what salvation is about.

1053
00:43:44,545 --> 00:43:46,360
It's forgiveness, but it's

1054
00:43:46,360 --> 00:43:49,120
primarily formation
in Christ's likeness.

1055
00:43:49,120 --> 00:43:50,620
Their worry would be that that's

1056
00:43:50,620 --> 00:43:51,880
turning into work's
righteousness,

1057
00:43:51,880 --> 00:43:52,960
but if you look at the quote,

1058
00:43:52,960 --> 00:43:53,980
"In a Christian believer,

1059
00:43:53,980 --> 00:43:55,240
loves sits on the throne,

1060
00:43:55,240 --> 00:43:56,590
love for God and others.

1061
00:43:56,590 --> 00:43:59,860
In a circle near the throne
are all holy tempers."

1062
00:43:59,860 --> 00:44:01,930
The whole purpose of the
spiritual disciplines

1063
00:44:01,930 --> 00:44:03,190
are to form these tempers.

1064
00:44:03,190 --> 00:44:04,405
Now the tempers would be

1065
00:44:04,405 --> 00:44:06,940
the fruit of the
Spirit for Wesley.

1066
00:44:06,940 --> 00:44:10,390
It's a different emphasis
on how important is

1067
00:44:10,390 --> 00:44:14,390
actually developing the
fruit of the Spirit now.

1068
00:44:15,270 --> 00:44:17,920
What's our goal in
reaching out to the world?

1069
00:44:17,920 --> 00:44:20,680
Is it only to evangelize them or

1070
00:44:20,680 --> 00:44:23,785
is it also to serve
them body and soul?

1071
00:44:23,785 --> 00:44:25,990
Let me give one last quote for

1072
00:44:25,990 --> 00:44:29,860
that and then leave the
others for you to read.

1073
00:44:29,860 --> 00:44:33,610
I'm reminded when
premillennialism reemerged,

1074
00:44:33,610 --> 00:44:35,740
dispensationalism in particular,

1075
00:44:35,740 --> 00:44:39,295
arguing over against what
had been postmillennialism.

1076
00:44:39,295 --> 00:44:41,890
The postmillennialists
had this vision that

1077
00:44:41,890 --> 00:44:44,830
we're to prepare for
the coming of Christ.

1078
00:44:44,830 --> 00:44:46,150
When they would talk about what

1079
00:44:46,150 --> 00:44:47,305
the Church ought to
be doing, they'd say,

1080
00:44:47,305 --> 00:44:49,420
well, remember the
verse where it says,

1081
00:44:49,420 --> 00:44:50,830
in preparing for Christ's
first coming that we're

1082
00:44:50,830 --> 00:44:52,210
to go out into the wilderness

1083
00:44:52,210 --> 00:44:55,090
where there are all these hills
and valleys, these bumps,

1084
00:44:55,090 --> 00:44:58,240
etc and work to prepare
the way of the Lord by

1085
00:44:58,240 --> 00:45:00,040
bringing down the
hills and smoothing

1086
00:45:00,040 --> 00:45:02,680
out the valleys and
making it smooth.

1087
00:45:02,680 --> 00:45:04,929
Yes, there are struggles,

1088
00:45:04,929 --> 00:45:06,760
there are challenges
in our world out there

1089
00:45:06,760 --> 00:45:09,115
that prevent God's full reign.

1090
00:45:09,115 --> 00:45:10,840
Where do we involve
in taking them

1091
00:45:10,840 --> 00:45:13,720
on and trying to transform them?

1092
00:45:13,720 --> 00:45:15,850
Dwight Moody, one of

1093
00:45:15,850 --> 00:45:17,320
the early premillennialists
said, no,

1094
00:45:17,320 --> 00:45:18,460
you misunderstand the problem,

1095
00:45:18,460 --> 00:45:19,630
it's much worse than you

1096
00:45:19,630 --> 00:45:21,790
think and we have
fewer resources.

1097
00:45:21,790 --> 00:45:23,740
He said a better model is
that the world is like

1098
00:45:23,740 --> 00:45:26,950
a raging ocean and

1099
00:45:26,950 --> 00:45:29,980
Christians are only a few
little lifeboats on that ocean.

1100
00:45:29,980 --> 00:45:32,860
The best we can do is pull
some others out of the water

1101
00:45:32,860 --> 00:45:36,310
into the boat and keep them
safe till Jesus comes back.

1102
00:45:36,310 --> 00:45:38,230
Now if he's right
that that's how

1103
00:45:38,230 --> 00:45:39,520
bad the problem is and how

1104
00:45:39,520 --> 00:45:43,225
few our resources are,
that's our model.

1105
00:45:43,225 --> 00:45:46,390
But if the resources
are greater,

1106
00:45:46,390 --> 00:45:49,330
then maybe it's a
different model.

1107
00:45:49,330 --> 00:45:51,610
Those are the kind
of choices involved

1108
00:45:51,610 --> 00:45:53,785
finally when you're really
dealing with the question,

1109
00:45:53,785 --> 00:45:55,300
what's the Christian hope?

1110
00:45:55,300 --> 00:45:57,520
Because the Christian hope is
never just about what will

1111
00:45:57,520 --> 00:45:59,890
things be like those last days?

1112
00:45:59,890 --> 00:46:02,845
The Christian hope is
about questions like,

1113
00:46:02,845 --> 00:46:07,179
how real can God's victory
be now in my life,

1114
00:46:07,179 --> 00:46:10,074
in our family, in our community,

1115
00:46:10,074 --> 00:46:13,070
in our current prices?

1116
00:46:13,110 --> 00:46:18,430
Can we assume God's calling
us not only to pray about it,

1117
00:46:18,430 --> 00:46:21,685
but maybe to be God's arms
being involved in doing it.

1118
00:46:21,685 --> 00:46:23,410
That would point
me to the last one

1119
00:46:23,410 --> 00:46:25,885
that I would highlight
just a little,

1120
00:46:25,885 --> 00:46:27,295
which is the one where it says,

1121
00:46:27,295 --> 00:46:28,840
are we called to
leave the world to

1122
00:46:28,840 --> 00:46:32,030
God or be God's
servants to the world?

1123
00:46:32,940 --> 00:46:38,185
Notice Book 2, Pages 364-'5,

1124
00:46:38,185 --> 00:46:40,390
one of the main figures
says scripture does

1125
00:46:40,390 --> 00:46:42,445
not seem to indicate
that Christ followers

1126
00:46:42,445 --> 00:46:47,140
can do more than simply bear
up against the anti-Christ.

1127
00:46:47,140 --> 00:46:49,840
The anti-Christ was
on a course foretold

1128
00:46:49,840 --> 00:46:52,195
centuries before the drama
would be played to the end,

1129
00:46:52,195 --> 00:46:53,440
it's all programmed,

1130
00:46:53,440 --> 00:46:55,210
we can't make a difference.

1131
00:46:55,210 --> 00:46:58,760
The best we can do
is keep some safe.

1132
00:46:59,010 --> 00:47:01,450
I'm reminded in this context,

1133
00:47:01,450 --> 00:47:02,560
if you read the article on

1134
00:47:02,560 --> 00:47:04,870
the Left Behind series
in Time magazine,

1135
00:47:04,870 --> 00:47:07,990
the author quotes one of
the people who runs one of

1136
00:47:07,990 --> 00:47:12,595
the main websites on
Bible prophecy who says,

1137
00:47:12,595 --> 00:47:15,160
"Try viewing prophecy and
current events as how much

1138
00:47:15,160 --> 00:47:18,145
closer we are to being
with Christ in heaven,

1139
00:47:18,145 --> 00:47:20,870
then it won't be so scary."

1140
00:47:21,540 --> 00:47:24,190
Maybe instead of seeing

1141
00:47:24,190 --> 00:47:27,490
those problems as just a
reminder that Christ is coming,

1142
00:47:27,490 --> 00:47:29,050
we ought to see them as
something that Christ is

1143
00:47:29,050 --> 00:47:31,105
calling us to engage,

1144
00:47:31,105 --> 00:47:33,130
to work to change.

1145
00:47:33,130 --> 00:47:36,550
Wesley in his sermon on
the General Deliverance

1146
00:47:36,550 --> 00:47:37,960
after telling us about what God

1147
00:47:37,960 --> 00:47:39,730
is doing and will do says,

1148
00:47:39,730 --> 00:47:42,205
and this is meant to
encourage us to imitate

1149
00:47:42,205 --> 00:47:46,340
the God who's mercy
is overall his works.

1150
00:47:46,890 --> 00:47:49,990
My suggestion to you is

1151
00:47:49,990 --> 00:47:54,235
that you read this series,
you read other series.

1152
00:47:54,235 --> 00:47:56,845
But that in this series,

1153
00:47:56,845 --> 00:47:58,600
as with all literature,

1154
00:47:58,600 --> 00:48:01,345
Christian and more broadly,

1155
00:48:01,345 --> 00:48:04,340
that you read it with
discerning eyes.

1156
00:48:04,650 --> 00:48:07,465
That you learn from it,
that you be shaped by it,

1157
00:48:07,465 --> 00:48:08,665
but that you also ask,

1158
00:48:08,665 --> 00:48:10,480
does this reflect the
fullness of what I

1159
00:48:10,480 --> 00:48:12,700
think the Christian
life is about?

1160
00:48:12,700 --> 00:48:14,650
Because what's going on in

1161
00:48:14,650 --> 00:48:20,035
these books is not just
interesting entertainment,

1162
00:48:20,035 --> 00:48:21,880
but finally a vision of what the

1163
00:48:21,880 --> 00:48:24,620
world's like and how
Christians fit in it.

1164
00:48:25,440 --> 00:48:28,015
Now my goal isn't
to convince you

1165
00:48:28,015 --> 00:48:29,650
one is right, another wrong,

1166
00:48:29,650 --> 00:48:31,300
it is to give you
the information

1167
00:48:31,300 --> 00:48:33,385
that might help you
to make that choice.

1168
00:48:33,385 --> 00:48:36,160
But let me close
with a challenge.

1169
00:48:36,160 --> 00:48:38,590
What about those of us who might

1170
00:48:38,590 --> 00:48:41,020
say we think the Wesley
envision is right,

1171
00:48:41,020 --> 00:48:42,610
we share his deep convictions.

1172
00:48:42,610 --> 00:48:43,810
Does that mean we walk away from

1173
00:48:43,810 --> 00:48:45,415
this section and go
about this is great,

1174
00:48:45,415 --> 00:48:47,095
we have nothing to work on?

1175
00:48:47,095 --> 00:48:48,520
Actually, I want to suggest that

1176
00:48:48,520 --> 00:48:50,590
the Left Behind series poses
a real challenge for us

1177
00:48:50,590 --> 00:48:54,210
because what it has shown is
that those that share that

1178
00:48:54,210 --> 00:48:56,220
eschatology can find
some ways to put it in

1179
00:48:56,220 --> 00:48:58,590
terms of really communicate
to a mass audience,

1180
00:48:58,590 --> 00:49:01,140
at least a North
American audience.

1181
00:49:01,140 --> 00:49:04,080
We don't seem to
be doing as well.

1182
00:49:04,080 --> 00:49:06,435
Not even as well as
Wesley did in helping get

1183
00:49:06,435 --> 00:49:09,405
an alternative vision
across to that audience.

1184
00:49:09,405 --> 00:49:11,490
The challenge is how can we find

1185
00:49:11,490 --> 00:49:13,655
winsome and compelling ways?

1186
00:49:13,655 --> 00:49:15,610
That concern to instill hope and

1187
00:49:15,610 --> 00:49:18,160
confidence in Christians
about what we

1188
00:49:18,160 --> 00:49:20,440
can do even now through

1189
00:49:20,440 --> 00:49:24,760
the Spirit to engage our
world in transforming ways,

1190
00:49:24,760 --> 00:49:26,920
a world that remains so far

1191
00:49:26,920 --> 00:49:30,100
short of what God
desires for it.

1192
00:49:30,100 --> 00:49:33,325
Engaging the world to change it.

1193
00:49:33,325 --> 00:49:36,010
Now that sounds familiar and

1194
00:49:36,010 --> 00:49:36,850
Wesley might say it's

1195
00:49:36,850 --> 00:49:39,100
a mission statement
worth affirming.

1196
00:49:39,100 --> 00:49:43,994
Thank you.