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Thank you for coming.

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We are in for a
delightful evening

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to hear from one of our own,

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one of our own faculty members.

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As most of you know,

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this lecture series is a process
that we go through where

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the faculty of Seattle Pacific

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choose one of our own faculty

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to deliver a lecture each year,

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and that scholar then

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spends the whole year in
preparation for this lecture.

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So we are delighted to recognize
the work this evening,

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Dr. Marcia Webb,

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and we look forward to your
lecture tonight, Marcia.

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Glad that you've all come.

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We were counting up here that we

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believe this is
the 35th lecture.

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As I look at the list that you
all have in your programs,

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I am also looking across
this audience and I see

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quite a number of the
former Weter lecturers.

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I would like for those
of you who have given,

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delivered one of the lectures in

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the past to stand
and be recognized,

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so all of you who have been
at this podium before.

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[APPLAUSE]

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Thank you very much.

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This lecture is in honor
of Dr. Winifred Weter.

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Many of you, as I look out
across this audience again,

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worked with her, taught
with her over the years.

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She was a professor here of

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classics and of
Greek for 40 years,

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a long and distinguished career.

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She received her PhD

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in classics from the
University of Chicago.

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Before women received degrees
in classics from Chicago,

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she was a pioneer.

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She was setting a
pace, she was a model.

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She was a model for

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our women scholars on this
campus for so many years.

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In the early years,

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she did a lot of other things
like coach basketball,

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be involved in a great
deal even in athletics.

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She contributed to
this campus and to

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the life and work and

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history of Seattle
Pacific immensely.

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We lift up her career
and her life and

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her devotion to
learning tonight.

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That's what we honor,

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and we continue to
honor that legacy of

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hers and those commitments
and values that

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she represented so well
in our midst for so long.

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When I've heard had
a spirit of her own,

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believe me, I got
to know her well,

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and the time that
I have been here,

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I can remember standing at
this podium one evening for

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Weter lecture and I said

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something like back
a few years ago,

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I said this is the
26th Weter lecture and

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she out of the audience
says 25, corrects me.

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This was a spirit
of Winifred Weter,

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wonderful person that she was,

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and we honor her tonight
with this lecture.

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I would also like to recognize
Ross and Barbara Shaw,

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who have carried on this legacy,

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contributed to this financially

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so that this lecture
can continue.

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They have done this
anonymously for many,

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many years and I
have coaxed them

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and persuaded them to
let me acknowledge them,

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which we've been able to
do for the last few years.

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But Ross and Barbara,

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I wonder if you would please

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stand and let us recognize you.

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[APPLAUSE]

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Let us move into the lecture
and I would like to ask Dr.

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Michael Row if he would come
and introduce Dr. Webb.

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Good evening. I am
very pleased to

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introduce to you my longtime
colleague, Dr. Marcia Webb,

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Associate Professor of
Clinical Psychology

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in the School of Psychology,

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Family, and Community,

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who in turn will
be leading us on

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an exploration into a
theology of mental illness.

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Marcia is eminently qualified
to address this topic.

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She is a PhD in

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clinical psychology and
a licensed psychologist.

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She also earned a masters of

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divinity degree from Fuller
Theological Seminary.

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She has amassed
almost two decades

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as a practicing psychotherapist.

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She is a teacher,
research mentor,

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and scholar in the
psychology of religion.

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Along with her colleague,

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Dr. Kathy steps in the
School of Health Sciences,

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she directs the Living
Well Initiative

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and the Dickinson Fellowship,

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a truly innovative
multidisciplinary

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training program for
undergraduate, masters,

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and doctoral students that
is focused on persons and

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their families facing persistent,
severe mental illness.

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Marcia describes the role of

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faculty in our field at
Seattle Pacific University.

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Here, I will paraphrase her
a wee bit as one in which,

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"We consider the philosophical

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and worldview assumptions of

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our disciplines and how

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these assumptions relate
to our Christian faith.

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We strive for intellectual
integrity both as

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competence psychologists and
as thoughtful Christians.

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We are willing to ask
difficult questions and to

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pose multiple potential answers.

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The struggle to seek

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some resolution should result
in greater humility and

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a renewed appreciation of

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the limitations we
share as humans

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attempting to understand
the vast world around us."

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Amen. In the
not-too-distant past,

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Marcia was in a rather spicy
verbal interchange with

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a talented biblical
scholar about

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Moltmann's concept of
the sin of despair.

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This Bible says in a somewhat
rebuking tones stated,

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"But people, Moltmann is a
professional theologian.

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The idiom of his
discourse is theological,

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not psychological,
not sociological,

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not biological, theological.

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To which Marcia replied,

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"If theological
discourse does not

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address the lived
experience of humanity,

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then of what value is it?"

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The Bible says,
conceded, none at all.

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Tonight, Marcia
will be presenting

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a theological discourse that

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directly touches the
lived experience of

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a large portion of humanity.

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A portion of
humanity that has in

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fact existed on the margins,

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including the margins of
the Christian church.

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Toward a theology of mental
illness, my friends,

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please join me in
welcoming Dr. Marcia Webb.

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[APPLAUSE]

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Thank you. I'm honored
to be here tonight.

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I'm honored to be your
recipient of Weter lecture.

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Tonight I want to talk to you about the
topic that's very close to my heart.

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I want to talk to you about
faith and mental illness.

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In addition to my role
here as humble faculty in

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the Department of
Clinical Psychology,

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I've been psychotherapist
for about two decades now.

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In my practice of work,

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most of you are Christians
because my area of

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interest to you is Christian
faith and mental illness.

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I have worked with people
who have struggled with

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depression, anxiety,

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association, issues with trauma

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and abuse, and
sometimes psychosis.

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As I watched these people
struggle with their disorders,

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I've watched them struggle
with something else.

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I've watched them struggle
with their faith.

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They wondered,
shouldn't my faith

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protect me from anxiety?

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Isn't depression a sin?

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They felt judged in

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their churches because they
suffer with mental illness.

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Apparently, my clients
are not alone.

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I want to look with you at

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some research from the
psychology religion,

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which talks about

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religious attitudes
about mental illness.

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In one study that was done

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recently by a researcher
named Stanford,

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participants in an
online mental illness,

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a discussion group described

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interactions with the church
around mental illness.

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Either they or a family
member had a mental illness.

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The majority of participants
indicated that they had

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had positive interactions
in the church.

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At about 1/3 stated
that they had

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negative experiences
in the church.

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The church viewed
mental illness as

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a result of personal sin.

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Another 1/3 also reported
that the church had suggested

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that they or their loved ones

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did not really have
a mental illness.

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In some cases, people who had

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had these negative experiences

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decided not to continue
to go to these churches.

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In another study, participants

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described how they felt
estranged from the church,

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how they felt judged by
church members and how

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they based general sense to

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lack of acceptance
of mental illness.

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Other research has demonstrated
the subset of persons

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believe that genuine faith will

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prevent problems
like depression and

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anxiety and that mental illness
is a spiritual problem,

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not a psychological
or health problem,

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or that it's
alienation from God.

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We also have something that
psychologists refer to as

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anecdotal evidence
of these attitudes.

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What is meant by anecdotal
evidence is that we can

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cite instances of these events

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even though they're
not a part of

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a systematic research study.

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Look with me at an
example of this.

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Dr. Kay Jamison Redfield is

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a psychologist and she wrote
the book An Unquiet Mind,

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which talks about her experiences
with bipolar disorder.

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Bipolar disorder was once

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referred to as manic
depressive disorders.

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You may be more familiar
with that title.

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She says, "I received thousands
of letters from people.

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Most of them were supportive but

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many were exceedingly hostile.

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A striking number said that I

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deserve my illness because I was

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insufficiently
Christian and that

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the devil had gotten hold of me.

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More prayer, not medication
was the only answer."

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Now there are other
studies that also show

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these general attitudes in

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segments of the church
around the world.

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When I think about these ideas,

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I think about them as
belonging to a larger system,

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a type of Working lay theology.

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When I use the phrase
like theology,

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I mean that physiology

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doesn't emerge from the
work of trained scholars.

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It emerges out of the community.

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It's something that's
an implicit rubric

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of understanding
among lay believers.

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This implicit rubric
of understanding

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may not be consciously examined.

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It may not be very
well understood.

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It may even contradict itself.

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Yet it permeates the
life of the church

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and the understanding of
mental illness in the church.

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In preparation for this
lecture I wrote a paper and I

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discussed a number of

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different components of
that Working lay theology.

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But I just wanted to touch
on a few with you tonight.

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One idea that seems
to be embedded

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in this Working lay theology is

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the notion that believers
should be protected from

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experiences like
depression and anxiety.

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In other ideas that
mental illness

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may be due to a lack of faith.

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Mental illnesses
such as depression,

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anxiety may therefore be
demonstrations of sin.

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Mental illnesses may
be caused by sin.

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Again, these are just a few of

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the ideas that I will
look at tonight with you.

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One day I was thinking about
these general attitudes

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in the church and I
remembered Christians,

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I've known who seem to
embody these ideas.

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I remember their
absolute conviction

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that we can always have

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the peace that
passes understanding

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or the joy of the Lord.

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That we can have instantaneous
access to the power of

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God to overcome all of
our psychological pain.

260
00:13:34,735 --> 00:13:36,820
That we never have to
have psychological pain,

261
00:13:36,820 --> 00:13:39,415
and certainly we never have
to experience mental illness.

262
00:13:39,415 --> 00:13:41,935
That the Bible guarantees
us this power.

263
00:13:41,935 --> 00:13:44,290
I was thinking about
these people and how they

264
00:13:44,290 --> 00:13:46,855
just always seemed to me to
be so cheery and bright.

265
00:13:46,855 --> 00:13:48,640
They look good,
they sounded good.

266
00:13:48,640 --> 00:13:51,625
They just seemed impervious
to the stresses of life.

267
00:13:51,625 --> 00:13:53,260
As I was reflecting on this,

268
00:13:53,260 --> 00:13:55,180
I couldn't help but
think then in some ways,

269
00:13:55,180 --> 00:13:56,965
this is actually a
very appealing way

270
00:13:56,965 --> 00:13:59,050
to think about the
Christian life.

271
00:13:59,050 --> 00:14:00,970
Wouldn't it be great
if we never had

272
00:14:00,970 --> 00:14:02,470
to have any
psychological pain at

273
00:14:02,470 --> 00:14:05,905
all or if we never had
to have mental illness,

274
00:14:05,905 --> 00:14:07,360
if we could be absolutely

275
00:14:07,360 --> 00:14:09,490
guaranteed that our lives

276
00:14:09,490 --> 00:14:11,200
would always have peace and joy.

277
00:14:11,200 --> 00:14:13,060
But as I continue to
think about this,

278
00:14:13,060 --> 00:14:15,400
I thought I'm not so sure

279
00:14:15,400 --> 00:14:17,890
that's very real or it
just doesn't feel genuine.

280
00:14:17,890 --> 00:14:20,710
It feels somehow
artificial to me.

281
00:14:20,710 --> 00:14:23,020
I was thinking this
overwhelming over

282
00:14:23,020 --> 00:14:25,495
this juxtaposition of
these two descriptors,

283
00:14:25,495 --> 00:14:29,410
something that's appealing
and artificial and going over

284
00:14:29,410 --> 00:14:31,360
and over in my mind about

285
00:14:31,360 --> 00:14:34,370
this and this image
popped into my head.

286
00:14:34,400 --> 00:14:36,570
I thought about this movie.

287
00:14:36,570 --> 00:14:39,540
[LAUGHTER] I saw years ago.

288
00:14:39,540 --> 00:14:41,220
I saw this movie in the 1970s.

289
00:14:41,220 --> 00:14:44,535
A more recent version has come
out in the last few years,

290
00:14:44,535 --> 00:14:45,750
but it's based on a book by

291
00:14:45,750 --> 00:14:48,640
Ira Levin that was
published in 1972.

292
00:14:48,640 --> 00:14:51,200
And if you are familiar
with the story,

293
00:14:51,200 --> 00:14:54,330
there's this seemingly
dorsal little community

294
00:14:54,330 --> 00:14:57,090
in which the wives are
all disturbingly perfect.

295
00:14:57,090 --> 00:14:58,590
But as the story continues,

296
00:14:58,590 --> 00:15:00,660
we realize something
is very wrong here.

297
00:15:00,660 --> 00:15:02,580
We realize, along with

298
00:15:02,580 --> 00:15:03,960
the protagonist
that the wives are

299
00:15:03,960 --> 00:15:06,520
actually robots.
They are not real.

300
00:15:06,900 --> 00:15:10,120
As I was thinking about
this particular set of

301
00:15:10,120 --> 00:15:11,440
beliefs that we never

302
00:15:11,440 --> 00:15:12,970
have to experience
psychological pain,

303
00:15:12,970 --> 00:15:14,500
much less mental illness,
I couldn't help but

304
00:15:14,500 --> 00:15:16,855
think it's a lot like
the Stafford wives.

305
00:15:16,855 --> 00:15:19,750
Tonight I'm going to use the
term Stafford Christianity

306
00:15:19,750 --> 00:15:23,905
[LAUGHTER] to describe
this working lay theology.

307
00:15:23,905 --> 00:15:26,530
I do want to say one thing
though, about this term.

308
00:15:26,530 --> 00:15:28,060
I realized when I use this term,

309
00:15:28,060 --> 00:15:29,965
it may sound like
I'm being critical,

310
00:15:29,965 --> 00:15:31,705
at least of a portion
of the church

311
00:15:31,705 --> 00:15:33,805
and I suppose that's
because I am.

312
00:15:33,805 --> 00:15:35,845
But when I make this criticism,

313
00:15:35,845 --> 00:15:37,750
I do so as someone who

314
00:15:37,750 --> 00:15:40,240
loves the church and who
cares about her members.

315
00:15:40,240 --> 00:15:42,940
Especially, or maybe I
shouldn't say especially,

316
00:15:42,940 --> 00:15:44,800
but I have a special
heart for those who have

317
00:15:44,800 --> 00:15:47,830
mental illness
within her members.

318
00:15:47,830 --> 00:15:50,440
I've been a Christian
for more than 30 years.

319
00:15:50,440 --> 00:15:52,870
And over that time I have
come to believe that

320
00:15:52,870 --> 00:15:56,920
these ideas in Stafford
Christianity are true,

321
00:15:56,920 --> 00:15:59,140
that they're not
supported by the Bible.

322
00:15:59,140 --> 00:16:01,060
But I have to say when
I look at some of

323
00:16:01,060 --> 00:16:04,090
the adherence to this
particular view,

324
00:16:04,090 --> 00:16:05,350
I realize that they can be

325
00:16:05,350 --> 00:16:07,735
very devout people
and I respect that.

326
00:16:07,735 --> 00:16:09,550
I admire that in

327
00:16:09,550 --> 00:16:13,640
some ways I want to be
devout in that way too.

328
00:16:14,280 --> 00:16:16,420
It's in this spirit that I make

329
00:16:16,420 --> 00:16:19,435
the criticisms that
I offer tonight.

330
00:16:19,435 --> 00:16:22,540
Not as an outsider, but as a
person who loves the church

331
00:16:22,540 --> 00:16:26,065
and feels very grateful
to be one of her members.

332
00:16:26,065 --> 00:16:29,920
But then if Stafford
Christianity is not biblical,

333
00:16:29,920 --> 00:16:31,600
I can't help but ask myself,

334
00:16:31,600 --> 00:16:32,905
where does it come from?

335
00:16:32,905 --> 00:16:34,150
What are some of the antecedents

336
00:16:34,150 --> 00:16:35,545
to Stafford Christianity?

337
00:16:35,545 --> 00:16:38,380
What are some of those
forces in our culture that

338
00:16:38,380 --> 00:16:42,129
have facilitated
its development,

339
00:16:42,129 --> 00:16:44,230
that's maintained it,
that's encouraged

340
00:16:44,230 --> 00:16:46,810
its presence among us?

341
00:16:46,810 --> 00:16:49,240
One of the things that
I've wondered about is

342
00:16:49,240 --> 00:16:51,745
the positive thinking
movement of the 20th century.

343
00:16:51,745 --> 00:16:53,500
This movement was extremely

344
00:16:53,500 --> 00:16:56,920
popular in the mid 20th century.

345
00:16:56,920 --> 00:16:59,950
Here are just two of
its bestselling books

346
00:16:59,950 --> 00:17:01,795
from the mid 20th century.

347
00:17:01,795 --> 00:17:04,840
This movement propose that
if we change our attitudes,

348
00:17:04,840 --> 00:17:06,130
we could change our lives.

349
00:17:06,130 --> 00:17:09,040
The emphasis again
was being positive,

350
00:17:09,040 --> 00:17:11,125
which is something we see
in Stafford Christianity,

351
00:17:11,125 --> 00:17:13,345
having a positive attitude.

352
00:17:13,345 --> 00:17:15,820
Now the positive
thinking movement has

353
00:17:15,820 --> 00:17:18,280
undoubtedly helped many people.

354
00:17:18,280 --> 00:17:20,965
We see it's good influence still

355
00:17:20,965 --> 00:17:24,010
in publications like
Guideposts magazine,

356
00:17:24,010 --> 00:17:26,320
which was founded by
Norman Vincent Peale and

357
00:17:26,320 --> 00:17:28,705
his wife, Ruth Stafford Peale.

358
00:17:28,705 --> 00:17:30,730
I actually have a subscription
to that magazine.

359
00:17:30,730 --> 00:17:32,770
I've had it for years.
I love that magazine.

360
00:17:32,770 --> 00:17:36,804
But with regard to Stafford
Christianity, I wonder,

361
00:17:36,804 --> 00:17:39,805
has Stafford Christianity
taken the ideas of

362
00:17:39,805 --> 00:17:41,410
positive thinking
and apply them to

363
00:17:41,410 --> 00:17:43,675
situations where they
really don't fit?

364
00:17:43,675 --> 00:17:45,730
Has Stafford
Christianity in fact

365
00:17:45,730 --> 00:17:49,120
replaced Christian faith
with positive thinking?

366
00:17:49,120 --> 00:17:50,980
They are not the same.

367
00:17:50,980 --> 00:17:53,905
Christian faith is
about trusting God.

368
00:17:53,905 --> 00:17:56,215
Having a trusting
relationship with God.

369
00:17:56,215 --> 00:17:57,820
It involves so much more than

370
00:17:57,820 --> 00:18:00,830
any attitude could encompass.

371
00:18:00,870 --> 00:18:05,980
Another potential antecedent
to Stafford Christianity is

372
00:18:05,980 --> 00:18:11,035
the health or wealth gospel
or the prosperity gospel.

373
00:18:11,035 --> 00:18:14,605
Again, this is an
enormously popular movement

374
00:18:14,605 --> 00:18:17,185
in the United States and
around the world today.

375
00:18:17,185 --> 00:18:20,320
Here are just three of its
many bestselling books.

376
00:18:20,320 --> 00:18:22,825
If you're not familiar
with this movement,

377
00:18:22,825 --> 00:18:24,340
the health and wealth
gospel basically

378
00:18:24,340 --> 00:18:25,690
teaches that if people have

379
00:18:25,690 --> 00:18:27,430
enough faith then health and

380
00:18:27,430 --> 00:18:29,380
wealth are guarantee to them,

381
00:18:29,380 --> 00:18:33,355
they're entitled to health
and wealth through the Bible.

382
00:18:33,355 --> 00:18:37,430
Even though I do believe
God wants to bless us,

383
00:18:37,740 --> 00:18:41,035
Faith is not a formula.

384
00:18:41,035 --> 00:18:43,075
It's not a magic wand.

385
00:18:43,075 --> 00:18:45,070
Faith is about trusting God

386
00:18:45,070 --> 00:18:47,695
regardless of life's
circumstances.

387
00:18:47,695 --> 00:18:49,810
Yet according to the
health and wealth gospel,

388
00:18:49,810 --> 00:18:51,400
if you don't have enough faith,

389
00:18:51,400 --> 00:18:53,470
you won't have health
and wealth and if you

390
00:18:53,470 --> 00:18:54,610
don't have health and wealth

391
00:18:54,610 --> 00:18:56,605
then you don't
have enough faith.

392
00:18:56,605 --> 00:18:59,995
Unfortunately, for persons
who have mental illness,

393
00:18:59,995 --> 00:19:03,295
they may be seen as not
having enough faith.

394
00:19:03,295 --> 00:19:06,820
I wonder has Stafford
Christianity adopted this view?

395
00:19:06,820 --> 00:19:08,050
Does it judge people who have

396
00:19:08,050 --> 00:19:10,420
mental illnesses believing that

397
00:19:10,420 --> 00:19:11,530
they don't have enough faith and

398
00:19:11,530 --> 00:19:13,850
that's why they
suffer as they do.

399
00:19:14,440 --> 00:19:17,269
Well, I could say more
about these antecedents

400
00:19:17,269 --> 00:19:19,920
as well as potentially others.

401
00:19:20,050 --> 00:19:22,970
But what I want to do is
move ahead and actually look

402
00:19:22,970 --> 00:19:26,030
at separate Christianity in
light of the scriptures.

403
00:19:26,030 --> 00:19:27,960
What does some of the scriptures

404
00:19:27,960 --> 00:19:30,290
say about biblical characters?

405
00:19:30,290 --> 00:19:31,640
Do we find, for example,

406
00:19:31,640 --> 00:19:33,200
that God's people are protected

407
00:19:33,200 --> 00:19:35,170
from symptoms of
depression or anxiety?

408
00:19:35,170 --> 00:19:37,130
Do we find that the
Bible suggests that

409
00:19:37,130 --> 00:19:40,560
these experiences are
demonstrations of a lack of faith?

410
00:19:40,560 --> 00:19:44,025
Let's look first at Naomi.

411
00:19:44,025 --> 00:19:46,520
Remember the book of Ruth?

412
00:19:46,520 --> 00:19:48,620
Naomi is a woman who has

413
00:19:48,620 --> 00:19:51,005
lost both her husband
and her sons.

414
00:19:51,005 --> 00:19:53,390
At the time of these death,

415
00:19:53,390 --> 00:19:55,985
she's a foreigner in
the land of Moab.

416
00:19:55,985 --> 00:19:58,755
As a foreigner and as a widow,

417
00:19:58,755 --> 00:20:01,480
without sons in a
patriarchal society,

418
00:20:01,480 --> 00:20:04,595
she suddenly finds
herself bereft,

419
00:20:04,595 --> 00:20:07,865
utterly alone with no
social or economic power.

420
00:20:07,865 --> 00:20:10,740
She becomes so distraught
that she says,

421
00:20:10,740 --> 00:20:12,865
"Call me Mara," meaning bitter.

422
00:20:12,865 --> 00:20:15,775
She says," The Lord has
been very bitter to me."

423
00:20:15,775 --> 00:20:18,559
She tells her community
in Bethlehem,

424
00:20:18,559 --> 00:20:20,330
"The Lord has afflicted me.

425
00:20:20,330 --> 00:20:23,605
The Almighty has brought
misfortune upon me."

426
00:20:23,605 --> 00:20:25,815
But no one says to her,

427
00:20:25,815 --> 00:20:27,320
you need to increase your faith.

428
00:20:27,320 --> 00:20:29,120
You need to improve
your attitude.

429
00:20:29,120 --> 00:20:31,759
No one judges her
for her despair.

430
00:20:31,759 --> 00:20:34,730
Instead, her family
rallies around her.

431
00:20:34,730 --> 00:20:38,060
In this illustration
by William Blake,

432
00:20:38,060 --> 00:20:39,590
we see as her daughter-in-law,

433
00:20:39,590 --> 00:20:41,540
Ruth clings to her and promises

434
00:20:41,540 --> 00:20:44,700
her she'll never leave her.

435
00:20:44,700 --> 00:20:49,685
Later, these two
women will meet Boaz,

436
00:20:49,685 --> 00:20:50,960
a wealthy landowner, a

437
00:20:50,960 --> 00:20:53,795
relative who will commit
himself to helping them.

438
00:20:53,795 --> 00:20:56,895
Eventually the three
will become a family.

439
00:20:56,895 --> 00:20:59,605
Then Naomi's hope
will be restored.

440
00:20:59,605 --> 00:21:00,860
We see God working through

441
00:21:00,860 --> 00:21:03,720
this little social
support system.

442
00:21:05,970 --> 00:21:09,730
Remember Elijah, Elijah also

443
00:21:09,730 --> 00:21:11,470
becomes very despondent at

444
00:21:11,470 --> 00:21:13,375
one point in his
earthly mission.

445
00:21:13,375 --> 00:21:16,525
He becomes so despondent
that he begs God for death.

446
00:21:16,525 --> 00:21:18,670
He says, "I have had enough,

447
00:21:18,670 --> 00:21:19,795
Lord take my life.

448
00:21:19,795 --> 00:21:22,360
I am no better than
my ancestors."

449
00:21:22,360 --> 00:21:24,160
He's been threatened by

450
00:21:24,160 --> 00:21:29,740
King Ahab's wife Jezebel and
he can't take it anymore.

451
00:21:29,740 --> 00:21:33,625
But the Bible doesn't tell us
that God chastises Elijah,

452
00:21:33,625 --> 00:21:35,830
the Bible doesn't say Elijah,

453
00:21:35,830 --> 00:21:38,139
you need to have a
positive attitude.

454
00:21:38,139 --> 00:21:40,645
Instead, God is very gentle.

455
00:21:40,645 --> 00:21:42,400
An angel of the Lord appears to

456
00:21:42,400 --> 00:21:45,670
Elijah and offers
Elijah food and says,

457
00:21:45,670 --> 00:21:47,710
here's some food
for your wary body.

458
00:21:47,710 --> 00:21:49,360
Then Elijah rests,

459
00:21:49,360 --> 00:21:51,325
and after Elijah has had food,

460
00:21:51,325 --> 00:21:54,550
after he's rested,
God speaks to him in

461
00:21:54,550 --> 00:21:56,050
a gentle whisper and tells

462
00:21:56,050 --> 00:21:57,850
him about the future of Israel.

463
00:21:57,850 --> 00:22:00,175
Then God says, I
want you to appoint

464
00:22:00,175 --> 00:22:02,725
a new prophet to replace you.

465
00:22:02,725 --> 00:22:04,540
So there is comforting news for

466
00:22:04,540 --> 00:22:06,655
Elijah that his commission,

467
00:22:06,655 --> 00:22:08,020
his time on Earth,

468
00:22:08,020 --> 00:22:12,115
his work is almost
fulfilled. Here we see him.

469
00:22:12,115 --> 00:22:15,070
He's being taken up
in a chariot of fire,

470
00:22:15,070 --> 00:22:19,960
and Elijah is
bidding him goodbye.

471
00:22:19,960 --> 00:22:22,970
Let's look at Job.

472
00:22:24,030 --> 00:22:26,230
Now the scriptures tell us that

473
00:22:26,230 --> 00:22:28,135
Job was an extraordinary man.

474
00:22:28,135 --> 00:22:31,060
In fact, in the prologue
to the book of Job,

475
00:22:31,060 --> 00:22:34,735
God is even boasting
about Job to Satan.

476
00:22:34,735 --> 00:22:37,030
God just asked with pride.

477
00:22:37,030 --> 00:22:39,460
Have you seen my servant Job?

478
00:22:39,460 --> 00:22:42,805
And God says about Job
that he is blameless and

479
00:22:42,805 --> 00:22:47,395
upright and that there is
no one on Earth like him.

480
00:22:47,395 --> 00:22:49,315
But Satan is unimpressed.

481
00:22:49,315 --> 00:22:51,280
Satan basically counters God.

482
00:22:51,280 --> 00:22:53,410
Well, if you didn't
bless him so much,

483
00:22:53,410 --> 00:22:55,389
he might not be so faithful.

484
00:22:55,389 --> 00:22:59,440
Here we have an illustration
by William Blake and we

485
00:22:59,440 --> 00:23:01,120
see Job with his
arms raised up in

486
00:23:01,120 --> 00:23:03,100
his friends are around him.

487
00:23:03,100 --> 00:23:04,420
His friends have
actually come to be

488
00:23:04,420 --> 00:23:06,820
his counselors during
this time of trial.

489
00:23:06,820 --> 00:23:09,775
But when these counselors
see Job's great pain,

490
00:23:09,775 --> 00:23:11,320
they are so stunned that for

491
00:23:11,320 --> 00:23:14,575
seven days and seven
nights they are silent.

492
00:23:14,575 --> 00:23:17,830
Now we might ask, how
did the scriptures

493
00:23:17,830 --> 00:23:22,360
portray the response of a
blameless man to trauma?

494
00:23:22,360 --> 00:23:24,730
Does this blameless man raise

495
00:23:24,730 --> 00:23:26,860
his arms toward
heaven and cry out,

496
00:23:26,860 --> 00:23:31,015
praise the Lord as Shepherd
Christianity might propose?

497
00:23:31,015 --> 00:23:33,565
Let's see what Job says.

498
00:23:33,565 --> 00:23:36,160
I love my very life.

499
00:23:36,160 --> 00:23:38,845
I wish I had died
before any eye saw me.

500
00:23:38,845 --> 00:23:41,350
If only I had never
come into being or had

501
00:23:41,350 --> 00:23:44,005
been carried straight from
the womb to the grave.

502
00:23:44,005 --> 00:23:45,790
Oh, than I might
have my requests

503
00:23:45,790 --> 00:23:47,350
that God would grant
what I hope for,

504
00:23:47,350 --> 00:23:49,225
that God would be
willing to crush me,

505
00:23:49,225 --> 00:23:52,495
to let loose his
hand and cut me off.

506
00:23:52,495 --> 00:23:55,180
By the way, does

507
00:23:55,180 --> 00:23:58,345
a blameless man ever wonder
if God is against him?

508
00:23:58,345 --> 00:24:02,320
Does a blameless man ever
disappear before his God?

509
00:24:02,320 --> 00:24:04,000
Here's Job, he's lying on

510
00:24:04,000 --> 00:24:05,920
his bed, I don't know
if you can see that.

511
00:24:05,920 --> 00:24:10,345
In Blake's illustration, God
is above him, and he says,

512
00:24:10,345 --> 00:24:12,130
"When I think my
bed will comfort

513
00:24:12,130 --> 00:24:14,395
me and my couch will
ease my complaint,

514
00:24:14,395 --> 00:24:16,990
even then you frighten me with
dreams and terrify me with

515
00:24:16,990 --> 00:24:18,730
visions so that I prefer

516
00:24:18,730 --> 00:24:21,490
strangling in death rather
than this body of mine.

517
00:24:21,490 --> 00:24:23,080
I despise my life,

518
00:24:23,080 --> 00:24:24,625
I would not live forever.

519
00:24:24,625 --> 00:24:27,740
Let me alone my days
have no meaning."

520
00:24:29,310 --> 00:24:33,580
Note, even though God has
said that Job is blameless,

521
00:24:33,580 --> 00:24:34,810
there'll be a whole
lot of blame that gets

522
00:24:34,810 --> 00:24:36,415
thrown around in this book.

523
00:24:36,415 --> 00:24:39,100
Job's friends who
once sad and stunned

524
00:24:39,100 --> 00:24:41,050
silence at the site of

525
00:24:41,050 --> 00:24:43,510
Job's despair suddenly
decided to speak.

526
00:24:43,510 --> 00:24:45,790
When they do, these
counselors tell

527
00:24:45,790 --> 00:24:48,445
him that it's his sin that
has causes suffering.

528
00:24:48,445 --> 00:24:52,390
They say, is not your
wickedness great,

529
00:24:52,390 --> 00:24:55,060
are not your sins endless.

530
00:24:55,060 --> 00:24:57,190
Am happy to report that in

531
00:24:57,190 --> 00:24:59,830
the millennia since
this book was written,

532
00:24:59,830 --> 00:25:01,989
counseling techniques have
improved dramatically.

533
00:25:01,989 --> 00:25:06,100
[LAUGHTER] Regardless of
the friends accusations,

534
00:25:06,100 --> 00:25:08,260
the scriptures nowhere blame
Job for his suffering,

535
00:25:08,260 --> 00:25:09,910
they never castigate him for

536
00:25:09,910 --> 00:25:13,000
his expression of
psychological pain.

537
00:25:13,000 --> 00:25:15,670
Instead, we read for

538
00:25:15,670 --> 00:25:18,400
35 of some of the most
brutal chapters in all of

539
00:25:18,400 --> 00:25:20,440
scripture about this
man's struggle with

540
00:25:20,440 --> 00:25:23,650
God before he
finally finds peace.

541
00:25:23,650 --> 00:25:25,330
This is not exactly
the picture of

542
00:25:25,330 --> 00:25:26,950
instantaneous peace and joy,

543
00:25:26,950 --> 00:25:29,785
that Shepherd of
Christianity would propose.

544
00:25:29,785 --> 00:25:32,380
Let's move to the New Testament.

545
00:25:32,380 --> 00:25:34,000
Here we have the Apostle Paul.

546
00:25:34,000 --> 00:25:36,415
This is a painting by Rembrandt,

547
00:25:36,415 --> 00:25:39,595
and Saint Paul in prison.

548
00:25:39,595 --> 00:25:41,560
Over the years, I have sometimes

549
00:25:41,560 --> 00:25:42,970
noticed that Shepherd
Christianity

550
00:25:42,970 --> 00:25:45,970
has a way of emphasizing
some verses over others.

551
00:25:45,970 --> 00:25:48,340
Perhaps one of the
most well-worn verses

552
00:25:48,340 --> 00:25:50,755
of Shepherd Christianity
is from the Apostle Paul,

553
00:25:50,755 --> 00:25:52,300
who writes to the Philippians,

554
00:25:52,300 --> 00:25:54,265
rejoice in the Lord always.

555
00:25:54,265 --> 00:25:56,860
Again, I say rejoice,
and I love that verse.

556
00:25:56,860 --> 00:25:59,395
It is a beautiful and
a powerful verse.

557
00:25:59,395 --> 00:26:01,270
But the same apostle who said

558
00:26:01,270 --> 00:26:03,970
those words also said these.

559
00:26:03,970 --> 00:26:07,090
We do not want you to be
uninformed brothers about

560
00:26:07,090 --> 00:26:09,595
the hardships we suffered
in the province of Asia.

561
00:26:09,595 --> 00:26:11,215
We were under great pressure

562
00:26:11,215 --> 00:26:12,520
far and beyond our ability to

563
00:26:12,520 --> 00:26:15,700
endure so that we
despaired even of life.

564
00:26:15,700 --> 00:26:16,990
Indeed in our hearts,

565
00:26:16,990 --> 00:26:18,730
we felt the sense of death.

566
00:26:18,730 --> 00:26:20,770
But this happened that
we might not rely on

567
00:26:20,770 --> 00:26:24,140
ourselves but on God
who raises the dead.

568
00:26:24,900 --> 00:26:28,210
Paul understood the
visit-hood of life.

569
00:26:28,210 --> 00:26:29,800
Perhaps this is why he also

570
00:26:29,800 --> 00:26:32,005
wrote rejoice with
those who rejoice,

571
00:26:32,005 --> 00:26:34,550
mourn with those who mourn.

572
00:26:35,160 --> 00:26:39,025
Now Shepherd Christianity
might raise this objection.

573
00:26:39,025 --> 00:26:40,390
Even if Naomi,

574
00:26:40,390 --> 00:26:43,300
Elijah, the blameless man Job,

575
00:26:43,300 --> 00:26:44,680
and Paul that experienced

576
00:26:44,680 --> 00:26:46,270
profound psychological distress,

577
00:26:46,270 --> 00:26:47,680
they were still sinners, was

578
00:26:47,680 --> 00:26:51,010
their distress so
evidence for their sin.

579
00:26:51,010 --> 00:26:52,930
To answer this
question, we need to

580
00:26:52,930 --> 00:26:54,835
go to the Garden of Gethsemane.

581
00:26:54,835 --> 00:26:58,780
We need to go to the place of

582
00:26:58,780 --> 00:27:03,100
Christ's suffering before
his a rest and crucifixion,

583
00:27:03,100 --> 00:27:05,365
and his agony to his friends.

584
00:27:05,365 --> 00:27:07,960
Jesus says, my soul is

585
00:27:07,960 --> 00:27:10,870
overwhelming with sorrow
to the point of death.

586
00:27:10,870 --> 00:27:13,420
The Gospels also
describe Christ soar,

587
00:27:13,420 --> 00:27:15,805
full, troubled and
deeply distressed.

588
00:27:15,805 --> 00:27:18,700
The book of Hebrews said,
Jesus prayed with loud cries

589
00:27:18,700 --> 00:27:22,105
and tears before
his crucifixion.

590
00:27:22,105 --> 00:27:26,410
So then the question becomes,

591
00:27:26,410 --> 00:27:28,420
does Shepherd
Christianity expect that

592
00:27:28,420 --> 00:27:31,520
people can be even more
Christian than Christ?

593
00:27:31,650 --> 00:27:34,690
Or the Shepherd Christianity
espouse a form of

594
00:27:34,690 --> 00:27:38,540
stoicism that's foreign
to the scriptures.

595
00:27:41,850 --> 00:27:44,140
Now we've looked at a little bit

596
00:27:44,140 --> 00:27:45,190
of Shepherd Christianity,

597
00:27:45,190 --> 00:27:46,930
and I've tried to
challenge some of

598
00:27:46,930 --> 00:27:49,090
its ideas and lay
a little bit of

599
00:27:49,090 --> 00:27:52,150
ground to consider
a different type

600
00:27:52,150 --> 00:27:53,755
of the theology and
mental illness.

601
00:27:53,755 --> 00:27:55,675
I want to look at
type of theology,

602
00:27:55,675 --> 00:27:57,250
mental illness and
how it might appear

603
00:27:57,250 --> 00:27:59,245
apart from Shepherd
Christianity,

604
00:27:59,245 --> 00:28:02,450
I'm going to look at some
scriptural themes with you.

605
00:28:03,150 --> 00:28:05,830
But before I do that, I need to

606
00:28:05,830 --> 00:28:08,350
go over with you a couple
of clarifications.

607
00:28:08,350 --> 00:28:10,300
One is that the Bible

608
00:28:10,300 --> 00:28:12,610
doesn't really talk about
mental illness per se.

609
00:28:12,610 --> 00:28:14,995
It's not a textbook
for disorders,

610
00:28:14,995 --> 00:28:17,110
and that makes good sense.

611
00:28:17,110 --> 00:28:18,160
Actually, diagnosis is

612
00:28:18,160 --> 00:28:19,750
a very recent
phenomenon in history.

613
00:28:19,750 --> 00:28:21,910
So the biblical
authors would not even

614
00:28:21,910 --> 00:28:24,895
had this anywhere
on their minds.

615
00:28:24,895 --> 00:28:26,860
We do see people
in psychological

616
00:28:26,860 --> 00:28:28,270
distress in the scriptures.

617
00:28:28,270 --> 00:28:30,655
For example, we see Elijah,

618
00:28:30,655 --> 00:28:33,745
he's exhausted, job can't sleep.

619
00:28:33,745 --> 00:28:35,590
Both men wanted to
die and so we could

620
00:28:35,590 --> 00:28:37,705
say those are symptoms
of depression.

621
00:28:37,705 --> 00:28:39,310
But I still don't
think it makes sense

622
00:28:39,310 --> 00:28:41,275
to look at the Bible,

623
00:28:41,275 --> 00:28:43,645
to try to find examples of

624
00:28:43,645 --> 00:28:45,100
mental illness in the Bible or

625
00:28:45,100 --> 00:28:47,590
the disorders as we
understand them today.

626
00:28:47,590 --> 00:28:49,180
That's for two reasons.

627
00:28:49,180 --> 00:28:51,370
One is that the Bible doesn't
give us enough detail.

628
00:28:51,370 --> 00:28:54,310
Diagnosticians like a lot
of detail before they,

629
00:28:54,310 --> 00:28:56,560
they make a diagnosis.

630
00:28:56,560 --> 00:28:59,530
Also, diagnoses look different

631
00:28:59,530 --> 00:29:02,650
at different points in history
and in different cultures.

632
00:29:02,650 --> 00:29:05,050
So it doesn't make sense
to mean that someone in

633
00:29:05,050 --> 00:29:06,370
today's world would look way

634
00:29:06,370 --> 00:29:08,320
back in the biblical culture,

635
00:29:08,320 --> 00:29:09,625
in an ancient culture,

636
00:29:09,625 --> 00:29:11,995
in another part of
the world and try to

637
00:29:11,995 --> 00:29:16,940
assess for pathology
in the ancient world.

638
00:29:17,790 --> 00:29:21,370
The other clarification I
want to make is that tonight

639
00:29:21,370 --> 00:29:22,450
my focus is going to be on

640
00:29:22,450 --> 00:29:24,385
severe and persistent
mental illnesses,

641
00:29:24,385 --> 00:29:25,825
which would include depression,

642
00:29:25,825 --> 00:29:27,010
certain anxiety disorders,

643
00:29:27,010 --> 00:29:29,230
bipolar disorder,
and schizophrenia.

644
00:29:29,230 --> 00:29:31,150
The reality is that there are

645
00:29:31,150 --> 00:29:33,220
literally hundreds
and hundreds of

646
00:29:33,220 --> 00:29:37,104
mental illnesses and thousands
and thousands of symptoms.

647
00:29:37,104 --> 00:29:38,920
In order to kind of reign in

648
00:29:38,920 --> 00:29:41,410
my thoughts and help
myself to have some focus,

649
00:29:41,410 --> 00:29:45,235
I decided to focus in on
these particular disorders.

650
00:29:45,235 --> 00:29:46,810
It may be that my comments start

651
00:29:46,810 --> 00:29:48,730
tonight will also apply
to other disorders,

652
00:29:48,730 --> 00:29:51,850
but it felt unmanageable

653
00:29:51,850 --> 00:29:55,400
unless I had some
sort of a limit.

654
00:29:58,350 --> 00:30:01,370
Now let's look at the first

655
00:30:01,470 --> 00:30:05,090
scriptural theme I
want to talk about.

656
00:30:08,010 --> 00:30:12,925
That is heroism,
[NOISE] frailty.

657
00:30:12,925 --> 00:30:15,550
Unlike Shepherd
Christianity, the Bible

658
00:30:15,550 --> 00:30:18,865
doesn't present us with
stoic, polished heroes.

659
00:30:18,865 --> 00:30:21,745
Instead, it presents us
with people who are frail,

660
00:30:21,745 --> 00:30:24,175
who have various weaknesses,

661
00:30:24,175 --> 00:30:27,910
and who struggle with
various difficulties

662
00:30:27,910 --> 00:30:31,030
maybe for years before they
finally find God's victory.

663
00:30:31,030 --> 00:30:34,330
Mental illnesses is a form
of frailty as a disability,

664
00:30:34,330 --> 00:30:36,040
but I have seen how people can

665
00:30:36,040 --> 00:30:38,035
try despite these disorders.

666
00:30:38,035 --> 00:30:39,700
I want to talk with
you about Moses.

667
00:30:39,700 --> 00:30:41,920
I think Moses is a
good example for

668
00:30:41,920 --> 00:30:44,725
someone who fits well into
the category of a frail hero.

669
00:30:44,725 --> 00:30:47,530
Moses was a son
of Hebrew slaves,

670
00:30:47,530 --> 00:30:48,955
but if you remember,

671
00:30:48,955 --> 00:30:52,435
he was found and raised
by Pharaoh's daughter.

672
00:30:52,435 --> 00:30:54,805
He was saved from the
hardships of slavery,

673
00:30:54,805 --> 00:30:56,170
but he watched it happening

674
00:30:56,170 --> 00:30:58,195
all around him as
he was growing up.

675
00:30:58,195 --> 00:31:01,465
In fact, one day when
Moses was an adult,

676
00:31:01,465 --> 00:31:04,405
he saw an Egyptian
abusing a Hebrews slave.

677
00:31:04,405 --> 00:31:07,885
Moses was so angry he
killed the Egyptian.

678
00:31:07,885 --> 00:31:15,265
Pharaoh found out and plan to
kill Moses in retaliation.

679
00:31:15,265 --> 00:31:18,850
Moses was terrified he
fled Egypt for the desert

680
00:31:18,850 --> 00:31:22,659
where he lived for many
years until finally died.

681
00:31:22,659 --> 00:31:25,600
Then suddenly God showed
up in the desert.

682
00:31:25,600 --> 00:31:28,060
God met Moses in the
burning bush and

683
00:31:28,060 --> 00:31:30,370
told Moses it's time
to go back home,

684
00:31:30,370 --> 00:31:33,640
it's time to deliver my people
out of their oppression.

685
00:31:33,640 --> 00:31:36,160
But Moses was not so
keen on the idea.

686
00:31:36,160 --> 00:31:38,349
He described to
God all obstacles

687
00:31:38,349 --> 00:31:39,970
and difficulties and problems,

688
00:31:39,970 --> 00:31:42,310
reasons why he couldn't
go down to Egypt,

689
00:31:42,310 --> 00:31:44,485
why it didn't make any sense.

690
00:31:44,485 --> 00:31:46,420
Finally he says to God what we

691
00:31:46,420 --> 00:31:48,550
suspect he's thinking all along,

692
00:31:48,550 --> 00:31:52,570
"Oh, Lord, please send
someone else to do it."

693
00:31:52,570 --> 00:31:54,820
Now from a human perspective,

694
00:31:54,820 --> 00:31:57,070
we might understand
Moses's aversion.

695
00:31:57,070 --> 00:31:58,780
God wanted him to return to

696
00:31:58,780 --> 00:32:02,635
that place where he
had run for his life.

697
00:32:02,635 --> 00:32:04,630
God wanted him to go
back to that place where

698
00:32:04,630 --> 00:32:08,290
his dual and conflicted
identity as a biological son

699
00:32:08,290 --> 00:32:10,390
of Hebrew slaves and as

700
00:32:10,390 --> 00:32:14,005
an adopted son of
Egyptian royalty,

701
00:32:14,005 --> 00:32:16,135
could find no healing.

702
00:32:16,135 --> 00:32:19,555
Maybe Moses doubted
God would act.

703
00:32:19,555 --> 00:32:21,580
After all, all the years
that he had grown up,

704
00:32:21,580 --> 00:32:23,920
he had watched the
Hebrews crying out for

705
00:32:23,920 --> 00:32:26,995
God's deliverance and he had
not seen that deliverance.

706
00:32:26,995 --> 00:32:29,455
He had seen Pharaoh's power

707
00:32:29,455 --> 00:32:31,285
and he was terrified of Pharaoh,

708
00:32:31,285 --> 00:32:34,370
but he had not yet
seen God's power.

709
00:32:35,220 --> 00:32:38,590
I wonder, was it just a
coincidence that Moses

710
00:32:38,590 --> 00:32:41,935
received this call from God
only after Pharaoh died?

711
00:32:41,935 --> 00:32:46,270
Maybe Moses always secretly
hoped to save the Hebrews,

712
00:32:46,270 --> 00:32:48,970
maybe that was the
misguided motive

713
00:32:48,970 --> 00:32:51,085
in his killing the Egyptian.

714
00:32:51,085 --> 00:32:52,495
But he couldn't do it,

715
00:32:52,495 --> 00:32:56,665
he couldn't save them, he ran
off and hid in the desert.

716
00:32:56,665 --> 00:32:58,674
Even many years later,

717
00:32:58,674 --> 00:33:01,120
he was still terrified
when God called him.

718
00:33:01,120 --> 00:33:03,295
But somehow despite his terror,

719
00:33:03,295 --> 00:33:05,319
despite his trembling
and turmoil,

720
00:33:05,319 --> 00:33:07,240
he returned to Egypt and

721
00:33:07,240 --> 00:33:09,354
now with God's leading
and provision,

722
00:33:09,354 --> 00:33:11,980
the Hebrews are delivered.

723
00:33:11,980 --> 00:33:14,800
Moses our frail hero

724
00:33:14,800 --> 00:33:17,500
overcomes the
psychological turmoil,

725
00:33:17,500 --> 00:33:20,680
he overcomes but
perhaps just narrowly.

726
00:33:20,680 --> 00:33:22,645
But it's this narrow difference

727
00:33:22,645 --> 00:33:24,175
that makes all the difference,

728
00:33:24,175 --> 00:33:26,590
it's this narrow difference

729
00:33:26,590 --> 00:33:29,350
upon which the
church is founded,

730
00:33:29,350 --> 00:33:31,720
it's this narrow
difference that tuples

731
00:33:31,720 --> 00:33:34,390
kingdoms and delivers the

732
00:33:34,390 --> 00:33:37,610
oppressed into the
expansive graces of God.

733
00:33:37,860 --> 00:33:42,820
Jesus knew this.
When the disciples

734
00:33:42,820 --> 00:33:44,170
asked Him for greater faith,

735
00:33:44,170 --> 00:33:46,885
He said, all you need is
the tiniest nub of faith,

736
00:33:46,885 --> 00:33:50,620
just a mustard seed of faith
and you will move mountains.

737
00:33:50,620 --> 00:33:52,944
Of course it may take decades.

738
00:33:52,944 --> 00:33:55,210
When we see Moses,

739
00:33:55,210 --> 00:33:58,105
we learn that
mountain-moving heroic faith

740
00:33:58,105 --> 00:33:59,380
can emerge in the midst of

741
00:33:59,380 --> 00:34:03,085
psychological turmoil that takes

742
00:34:03,085 --> 00:34:06,190
decades to demonstrate itself.

743
00:34:06,190 --> 00:34:08,410
When I think of
Moses's frailty and

744
00:34:08,410 --> 00:34:11,635
his reluctant heroism
I remember my clients.

745
00:34:11,635 --> 00:34:13,780
I have seen this heroism,

746
00:34:13,780 --> 00:34:15,400
the heroism that's
born in the midst of

747
00:34:15,400 --> 00:34:18,415
psychological turmoil in them.

748
00:34:18,415 --> 00:34:21,700
Once I worked with a man who
served as a missionary in

749
00:34:21,700 --> 00:34:23,530
a remote part of
the world which was

750
00:34:23,530 --> 00:34:25,735
in great political turmoil.

751
00:34:25,735 --> 00:34:28,030
He was daily exposed
to violence,

752
00:34:28,030 --> 00:34:31,600
organized crime,
and to espionage.

753
00:34:31,600 --> 00:34:33,700
He did return slightly
to United States but he

754
00:34:33,700 --> 00:34:36,175
was in a great deal of
emotional pain when he did.

755
00:34:36,175 --> 00:34:38,290
His missionary agency referred

756
00:34:38,290 --> 00:34:39,475
him to me and when they did,

757
00:34:39,475 --> 00:34:40,780
they said, by the way,
we want to give you

758
00:34:40,780 --> 00:34:42,325
a heads up about this man.

759
00:34:42,325 --> 00:34:43,930
He's going to tell you a lot of

760
00:34:43,930 --> 00:34:46,840
terrible stories but what you

761
00:34:46,840 --> 00:34:49,510
need to know is whatever
other psychological problems

762
00:34:49,510 --> 00:34:51,250
he has, he's not delusional.

763
00:34:51,250 --> 00:34:54,790
There are things that

764
00:34:54,790 --> 00:34:55,870
happened to him
that he will tell

765
00:34:55,870 --> 00:34:57,610
you actually didn't occur.

766
00:34:57,610 --> 00:34:59,305
I heard this man's story,

767
00:34:59,305 --> 00:35:00,730
he had been sent to perform

768
00:35:00,730 --> 00:35:03,220
a specific task as a
missionary which he did

769
00:35:03,220 --> 00:35:04,660
complete and he shared with me

770
00:35:04,660 --> 00:35:08,180
the trauma that he adored
in his continued suffering.

771
00:35:08,180 --> 00:35:09,960
I want to read you
a section from

772
00:35:09,960 --> 00:35:11,310
the paper that I wrote about

773
00:35:11,310 --> 00:35:15,370
him and what he teaches us
about heroism and frailty.

774
00:35:20,070 --> 00:35:23,305
Despite my heart as
I heard his story,

775
00:35:23,305 --> 00:35:25,045
I also felt off.

776
00:35:25,045 --> 00:35:26,920
This man I knew had changed

777
00:35:26,920 --> 00:35:29,395
the history of the nation
to which he had been sent

778
00:35:29,395 --> 00:35:31,780
and I in a most
arbitrary way had become

779
00:35:31,780 --> 00:35:34,405
a secondary and silent
witness of these events.

780
00:35:34,405 --> 00:35:36,010
No one I imagined,

781
00:35:36,010 --> 00:35:38,185
no journalist, no sociologist,

782
00:35:38,185 --> 00:35:40,645
given the chaotic situation
that part of the world

783
00:35:40,645 --> 00:35:43,240
would have recorded any
account of his excursions,

784
00:35:43,240 --> 00:35:45,130
the obstacles he encountered,

785
00:35:45,130 --> 00:35:46,945
the life-threatening
moments he faced

786
00:35:46,945 --> 00:35:49,630
in the enduring
significance of his work.

787
00:35:49,630 --> 00:35:51,760
My client did not understand

788
00:35:51,760 --> 00:35:54,280
his experience in this
product perspective.

789
00:35:54,280 --> 00:35:56,080
He felt guilt over his behavior

790
00:35:56,080 --> 00:35:57,715
in the midst of these stressors.

791
00:35:57,715 --> 00:35:59,740
He recalled how he
had snapped angrily

792
00:35:59,740 --> 00:36:01,780
at staff members of
the missionary site,

793
00:36:01,780 --> 00:36:04,810
how he had argued bitterly
with the missionary agency,

794
00:36:04,810 --> 00:36:06,760
and how nearly every moment for

795
00:36:06,760 --> 00:36:08,770
months on end he felt exhausted,

796
00:36:08,770 --> 00:36:11,395
angry, frightened,
or disappearing.

797
00:36:11,395 --> 00:36:13,570
Upon his return to
the United States,

798
00:36:13,570 --> 00:36:14,620
he doubted the wisdom and

799
00:36:14,620 --> 00:36:16,690
the support of his
missionary agency,

800
00:36:16,690 --> 00:36:18,280
and of his God who had left

801
00:36:18,280 --> 00:36:20,200
him in such a dangerous place.

802
00:36:20,200 --> 00:36:22,735
He believed he had
failed as a Christian.

803
00:36:22,735 --> 00:36:24,700
When asked by his
church to provide

804
00:36:24,700 --> 00:36:27,685
a missionary update to the
congregation, he bored.

805
00:36:27,685 --> 00:36:29,470
How could he put a
Stafford face on

806
00:36:29,470 --> 00:36:32,290
the most distressing experience
of his Christian life?

807
00:36:32,290 --> 00:36:34,405
Prior to his
missionary excursion,

808
00:36:34,405 --> 00:36:36,370
he had listened to a
seemingly endless flow

809
00:36:36,370 --> 00:36:37,810
of glowing tales
at the altar each

810
00:36:37,810 --> 00:36:40,300
Sunday as congregants
from a myriad

811
00:36:40,300 --> 00:36:43,135
of ministries described
God's activity among them.

812
00:36:43,135 --> 00:36:45,715
How could he follow
in this queue?

813
00:36:45,715 --> 00:36:47,950
As I sat with this client,

814
00:36:47,950 --> 00:36:51,205
I heard an echo reverberating
across the millennia,

815
00:36:51,205 --> 00:36:52,810
I recall the trials of

816
00:36:52,810 --> 00:36:55,360
another missionary who also
argued with church staff

817
00:36:55,360 --> 00:36:56,965
and evangelists to colleagues

818
00:36:56,965 --> 00:36:59,710
and who had at least
once lost hope.

819
00:36:59,710 --> 00:37:02,140
Yeah, the Apostle Paul
was surely one of

820
00:37:02,140 --> 00:37:03,790
the unparalleled
heroes of the Church

821
00:37:03,790 --> 00:37:05,530
in his century or in

822
00:37:05,530 --> 00:37:09,280
any century were it not for
his repeated journeys across

823
00:37:09,280 --> 00:37:11,790
the hostile Mediterranean
landscape will

824
00:37:11,790 --> 00:37:14,640
the church have exploded in
the Western world as it did,

825
00:37:14,640 --> 00:37:16,230
catapulting from Israel to

826
00:37:16,230 --> 00:37:19,049
Rome in the span of
a single lifetime.

827
00:37:19,049 --> 00:37:21,180
Like my missionary client,

828
00:37:21,180 --> 00:37:23,460
the Apostle Paul was
no separate Christian.

829
00:37:23,460 --> 00:37:26,230
How could he have been?
Stafford Christianity

830
00:37:26,230 --> 00:37:28,405
will not allow for
genuine heroism.

831
00:37:28,405 --> 00:37:30,250
Heroism is too messy,

832
00:37:30,250 --> 00:37:32,155
it is not polished
or pretentious,

833
00:37:32,155 --> 00:37:33,760
it takes so many risks,

834
00:37:33,760 --> 00:37:37,240
it demands enormous physical
and psychological energy,

835
00:37:37,240 --> 00:37:40,270
and worst of all, it
doesn't always work.

836
00:37:40,270 --> 00:37:42,610
Separate Christianity
is embarrassed by

837
00:37:42,610 --> 00:37:45,580
the ugliness of the
crucifixion and the shadow

838
00:37:45,580 --> 00:37:47,980
of its presence reappearing
in the long-suffering and

839
00:37:47,980 --> 00:37:50,830
the faithful for
each generation.

840
00:37:50,830 --> 00:37:53,305
He wants the appearance
of the valiant church

841
00:37:53,305 --> 00:37:55,450
without the expense
of suffering and

842
00:37:55,450 --> 00:37:57,520
the likelihood of
repeated failure

843
00:37:57,520 --> 00:38:00,865
necessary for us to
ultimate establishment.

844
00:38:00,865 --> 00:38:04,180
Yet it was in the context
of human frailty that

845
00:38:04,180 --> 00:38:06,130
God's miracle of
the establishment

846
00:38:06,130 --> 00:38:07,990
of the early church occurred.

847
00:38:07,990 --> 00:38:09,460
Paul did not present

848
00:38:09,460 --> 00:38:12,040
the victorious Christian
life as one characterized by

849
00:38:12,040 --> 00:38:16,375
forced and show optimism but
instead as one of paradox,

850
00:38:16,375 --> 00:38:18,909
manifest most
powerfully in weakness.

851
00:38:18,909 --> 00:38:21,220
Although the scriptures
testify that Paul

852
00:38:21,220 --> 00:38:23,500
possess the spiritual
gift of healing,

853
00:38:23,500 --> 00:38:25,600
he admitted that he
himself was unable

854
00:38:25,600 --> 00:38:27,865
to find relief from
personal infirmity.

855
00:38:27,865 --> 00:38:30,805
Instead he received
God's assurance,

856
00:38:30,805 --> 00:38:33,460
my grace is sufficient
for you for

857
00:38:33,460 --> 00:38:36,730
my power is made
perfect in weakness.

858
00:38:36,730 --> 00:38:39,310
In this we hear a
clarion call for

859
00:38:39,310 --> 00:38:41,485
hope for those with
mental illnesses.

860
00:38:41,485 --> 00:38:43,570
Mysteriously God's strength is

861
00:38:43,570 --> 00:38:46,630
manifest most powerfully
in human frailty,

862
00:38:46,630 --> 00:38:49,975
not in our artificial [NOISE]
and imagined abilities.

863
00:38:49,975 --> 00:38:53,545
In mental illness, we find
a unique form of frailty,

864
00:38:53,545 --> 00:38:57,099
just as we find potential
for unique forms of heroism.

865
00:38:57,099 --> 00:38:59,440
We might say of my
missionary client that

866
00:38:59,440 --> 00:39:02,530
his mental disorder was a
testimony that he could not

867
00:39:02,530 --> 00:39:05,950
bear psychologically the
confrontation with and

868
00:39:05,950 --> 00:39:07,930
overthrow of sociopolitical evil

869
00:39:07,930 --> 00:39:10,059
to which he was
committed spiritually.

870
00:39:10,059 --> 00:39:12,670
If he could not bear
this confrontation,

871
00:39:12,670 --> 00:39:14,800
it was through no
fault of his own.

872
00:39:14,800 --> 00:39:17,440
The scriptures that attest

873
00:39:17,440 --> 00:39:19,855
we were created
for life in Eden,

874
00:39:19,855 --> 00:39:22,120
traumatic confrontations
fall outside

875
00:39:22,120 --> 00:39:24,955
cannot cause initial design.

876
00:39:24,955 --> 00:39:27,490
Perhaps then the cross my client

877
00:39:27,490 --> 00:39:29,695
bore for his Lord,
for the church,

878
00:39:29,695 --> 00:39:32,350
and even for the world
was the disorder which

879
00:39:32,350 --> 00:39:36,099
resulted from his
missionary excursion.

880
00:39:36,099 --> 00:39:38,260
While separate Christianity
might describe

881
00:39:38,260 --> 00:39:40,960
these symptoms as evidence
of spiritual weakness,

882
00:39:40,960 --> 00:39:42,640
perhaps instead
they are the battle

883
00:39:42,640 --> 00:39:45,040
scars one finds
among the heroic.

884
00:39:45,040 --> 00:39:47,200
By the time they reach
the waiting rooms

885
00:39:47,200 --> 00:39:48,625
of mental health professionals,

886
00:39:48,625 --> 00:39:50,020
it may be impossible to know

887
00:39:50,020 --> 00:39:52,750
the battlefield set the
mental ill have traversed.

888
00:39:52,750 --> 00:39:54,220
Although he could not have

889
00:39:54,220 --> 00:39:56,275
imagined the suffering
he would endure,

890
00:39:56,275 --> 00:39:58,240
my missionary client shows as

891
00:39:58,240 --> 00:40:00,205
a reasonably healthy
and mature adult

892
00:40:00,205 --> 00:40:02,905
to embark upon his
overseas assignment.

893
00:40:02,905 --> 00:40:04,870
Others with mental
illnesses do not

894
00:40:04,870 --> 00:40:06,745
choose the damaging genetic,

895
00:40:06,745 --> 00:40:10,300
biological, psychological,
social, economic,

896
00:40:10,300 --> 00:40:12,610
and political circumstances
of their bursts,

897
00:40:12,610 --> 00:40:14,470
circumstances which may also

898
00:40:14,470 --> 00:40:16,360
expose them to
multiple sorrows and

899
00:40:16,360 --> 00:40:19,150
disadvantages and which
also fall outside

900
00:40:19,150 --> 00:40:20,620
the protected gates of Eden for

901
00:40:20,620 --> 00:40:22,585
which humanity was created.

902
00:40:22,585 --> 00:40:25,075
They are veterans
of a fallen world

903
00:40:25,075 --> 00:40:26,350
and in their symptoms we

904
00:40:26,350 --> 00:40:30,710
see the repercussions of
humanity's collective wounding.

905
00:40:31,050 --> 00:40:33,670
One of the things
that I've observed as

906
00:40:33,670 --> 00:40:36,130
a therapist is that
in mental illness,

907
00:40:36,130 --> 00:40:38,845
heroism may be hidden
in the mundane.

908
00:40:38,845 --> 00:40:42,250
Normal activities may require
extraordinary effort.

909
00:40:42,250 --> 00:40:45,070
In this we see heroism
and frailty as

910
00:40:45,070 --> 00:40:46,810
these individuals try to
live their lives with

911
00:40:46,810 --> 00:40:49,165
integrity despite
their disorders.

912
00:40:49,165 --> 00:40:51,550
I think of another
frail hero I know.

913
00:40:51,550 --> 00:40:52,945
This woman had

914
00:40:52,945 --> 00:40:55,390
unusually severe and
frequent panic attacks,

915
00:40:55,390 --> 00:40:56,905
particularly in social settings.

916
00:40:56,905 --> 00:40:58,420
She was employed
as a receptionist

917
00:40:58,420 --> 00:41:00,130
however which is a
very social job.

918
00:41:00,130 --> 00:41:03,400
[LAUGHTER] Years passed with

919
00:41:03,400 --> 00:41:05,815
literally hundreds
of panic attacks

920
00:41:05,815 --> 00:41:07,180
before she finally found

921
00:41:07,180 --> 00:41:09,160
relief and despite
that she almost

922
00:41:09,160 --> 00:41:10,600
never missed a day of work and

923
00:41:10,600 --> 00:41:12,670
went to church two or
three times a week.

924
00:41:12,670 --> 00:41:14,574
She's one of the most devout,

925
00:41:14,574 --> 00:41:17,215
incredible Christians
I've ever known.

926
00:41:17,215 --> 00:41:20,440
Here's another frail hero.

927
00:41:20,440 --> 00:41:23,545
Maybe you've heard of
Charles Jarvis Virgin.

928
00:41:23,545 --> 00:41:24,880
He was a preacher to

929
00:41:24,880 --> 00:41:28,210
thousands in the 19th century
before the explosion of

930
00:41:28,210 --> 00:41:30,400
the media that we
have today and he

931
00:41:30,400 --> 00:41:32,620
suffered with mental illness
all of his life and he

932
00:41:32,620 --> 00:41:35,530
talks about that in
his prolific writings

933
00:41:35,530 --> 00:41:37,390
about his depression

934
00:41:37,390 --> 00:41:39,670
and he also talks about
the secret strength it

935
00:41:39,670 --> 00:41:43,360
takes to endure with depression.

936
00:41:43,360 --> 00:41:46,090
He says, but we were
in body and mind near

937
00:41:46,090 --> 00:41:48,265
predisposing causes
to lowness of spirit,

938
00:41:48,265 --> 00:41:49,540
it is no Marvel if in

939
00:41:49,540 --> 00:41:52,150
dark moments the heart
succumbs to them.

940
00:41:52,150 --> 00:41:53,860
The wonder in many cases is,

941
00:41:53,860 --> 00:41:55,030
and if inner lives could be

942
00:41:55,030 --> 00:41:56,665
written men would see itself,

943
00:41:56,665 --> 00:41:58,720
awesome, keep it
their work at all and

944
00:41:58,720 --> 00:42:01,855
still work and smile
upon their countenances.

945
00:42:01,855 --> 00:42:06,730
But he's not the only one
to weigh in on this issue.

946
00:42:06,730 --> 00:42:08,950
[NOISE] CS Lewis in

947
00:42:08,950 --> 00:42:11,590
Mere Christianity also talks
about the hidden strength

948
00:42:11,590 --> 00:42:13,975
it takes for people to endure

949
00:42:13,975 --> 00:42:17,570
with symptoms of
mental disorder.

950
00:42:17,740 --> 00:42:21,230
First, he describes how

951
00:42:21,230 --> 00:42:23,060
some individuals
seem to be naturally

952
00:42:23,060 --> 00:42:25,430
blessed with psychological
health and stability,

953
00:42:25,430 --> 00:42:27,569
and then he says,

954
00:42:27,569 --> 00:42:29,949
"but if you are a poor creature,

955
00:42:29,949 --> 00:42:32,140
poison by a wretched
upbringing in

956
00:42:32,140 --> 00:42:33,910
some house full of
vulgar jealousies

957
00:42:33,910 --> 00:42:35,325
and senseless corals,

958
00:42:35,325 --> 00:42:37,190
settled by no choice of your own

959
00:42:37,190 --> 00:42:39,200
with some law and
sexual perversion,

960
00:42:39,200 --> 00:42:40,850
neg day in and day out by

961
00:42:40,850 --> 00:42:42,230
an inferiority complex that

962
00:42:42,230 --> 00:42:44,165
makes you snap at
your best friends.

963
00:42:44,165 --> 00:42:45,620
Do not despair,

964
00:42:45,620 --> 00:42:47,195
he knows all about it.

965
00:42:47,195 --> 00:42:49,685
You are one of the
poor whom he blessed.

966
00:42:49,685 --> 00:42:52,595
He knows what a wretched machine
you are trying to drive.

967
00:42:52,595 --> 00:42:54,800
Keep on to which you can.

968
00:42:54,800 --> 00:42:56,960
One day, perhaps
in another world,

969
00:42:56,960 --> 00:42:58,970
but perhaps far
sooner than that,

970
00:42:58,970 --> 00:43:00,725
you will fling it
on the scrap heap

971
00:43:00,725 --> 00:43:02,360
and give you a new one.

972
00:43:02,360 --> 00:43:04,340
Then you may astonish us all,

973
00:43:04,340 --> 00:43:06,080
not least yourself or you have

974
00:43:06,080 --> 00:43:08,555
learned you're driving
in a hard school.

975
00:43:08,555 --> 00:43:10,430
Some of the last
will be first and

976
00:43:10,430 --> 00:43:12,500
some of the first will be last."

977
00:43:12,500 --> 00:43:15,530
There's a lot of things I
like about this quotation,

978
00:43:15,530 --> 00:43:18,290
but I want to comment
about the phrases.

979
00:43:18,290 --> 00:43:19,925
Keep on do what you can.

980
00:43:19,925 --> 00:43:21,680
Those phrases assume
that people with

981
00:43:21,680 --> 00:43:23,315
mental disorders aren't victims.

982
00:43:23,315 --> 00:43:27,140
They have power even
within their limitations.

983
00:43:27,140 --> 00:43:29,630
Even though they haven't
caused their disorders,

984
00:43:29,630 --> 00:43:31,970
they do have responsibility
for themselves as persons,

985
00:43:31,970 --> 00:43:33,380
and that includes
the responsibility

986
00:43:33,380 --> 00:43:34,985
to keep on, to endure,

987
00:43:34,985 --> 00:43:36,440
to do what they can,

988
00:43:36,440 --> 00:43:39,065
to find ways to deal with the
challenges that they face,

989
00:43:39,065 --> 00:43:40,610
and to find the help that they

990
00:43:40,610 --> 00:43:44,209
need to deal with
their symptoms.

991
00:43:44,209 --> 00:43:46,130
When this also there's hope and

992
00:43:46,130 --> 00:43:48,980
dignity for persons who
have mental illness.

993
00:43:48,980 --> 00:43:52,295
I want to talk to you now
about a second theme,

994
00:43:52,295 --> 00:43:55,340
and this theme I've called
the stranger in our midst.

995
00:43:55,340 --> 00:43:57,230
This theme is about
the experience of

996
00:43:57,230 --> 00:44:00,570
stigma and estrangement
in mental illness.

997
00:44:00,730 --> 00:44:03,800
Due to stigma, people with

998
00:44:03,800 --> 00:44:05,300
mental illnesses
may feel strangers

999
00:44:05,300 --> 00:44:06,965
in the community around them.

1000
00:44:06,965 --> 00:44:09,830
Research suggests that
mental illness continues

1001
00:44:09,830 --> 00:44:12,590
to be one of the most stigmatized
conditions in society.

1002
00:44:12,590 --> 00:44:14,180
The National Institute of Mental

1003
00:44:14,180 --> 00:44:15,470
Health describes stigma as

1004
00:44:15,470 --> 00:44:17,390
the greatest impediment
for persons with

1005
00:44:17,390 --> 00:44:21,065
histories as
psychiatric patients.

1006
00:44:21,065 --> 00:44:23,554
Then it's not their symptoms,

1007
00:44:23,554 --> 00:44:26,970
it's society, that's
the biggest problems.

1008
00:44:29,890 --> 00:44:33,020
More and more we have
resources for symptoms.

1009
00:44:33,020 --> 00:44:36,049
But what do you do about
society's attitudes?

1010
00:44:36,049 --> 00:44:38,930
Sigma is an impediment
because it interferes with

1011
00:44:38,930 --> 00:44:41,060
a person's ability
in severe cases of

1012
00:44:41,060 --> 00:44:43,490
mental illness to locate
work and housing.

1013
00:44:43,490 --> 00:44:45,875
It also impacts
healthcare legislation

1014
00:44:45,875 --> 00:44:47,675
and research funding,

1015
00:44:47,675 --> 00:44:49,490
and stigma impacts

1016
00:44:49,490 --> 00:44:51,425
people's relationships
with each other.

1017
00:44:51,425 --> 00:44:54,850
It impacts how a person
feels about themselves,

1018
00:44:54,850 --> 00:44:56,620
whether or not they
feel valued or

1019
00:44:56,620 --> 00:44:59,050
whether or not they feel like
worthwhile human beings.

1020
00:44:59,050 --> 00:45:01,400
Unfortunately, the
church mental illness is

1021
00:45:01,400 --> 00:45:03,875
still a large part
hidden in shame.

1022
00:45:03,875 --> 00:45:05,705
People with mental
illnesses may feel

1023
00:45:05,705 --> 00:45:07,520
strange even with a community of

1024
00:45:07,520 --> 00:45:09,650
brothers and sisters they
may need feel like they need

1025
00:45:09,650 --> 00:45:12,200
to hide their disorders.

1026
00:45:12,200 --> 00:45:15,140
That is, if they're able
to hide their disorders,

1027
00:45:15,140 --> 00:45:18,120
they may live in shadow.

1028
00:45:18,250 --> 00:45:20,870
But those with mental
illnesses are not

1029
00:45:20,870 --> 00:45:22,580
the only ones to feel

1030
00:45:22,580 --> 00:45:25,490
hidden in a community

1031
00:45:25,490 --> 00:45:27,305
to feel that they
live in the shadow.

1032
00:45:27,305 --> 00:45:29,705
Christ himself was a stranger.

1033
00:45:29,705 --> 00:45:33,515
He was misunderstood and
rejected by his own people.

1034
00:45:33,515 --> 00:45:37,280
He wasn't welcome into the
universe that he had created.

1035
00:45:37,280 --> 00:45:40,700
When the religious community
wanted to dismiss him,

1036
00:45:40,700 --> 00:45:44,360
when they wanted to ignore him,

1037
00:45:44,360 --> 00:45:45,980
when they wanted to
cast them aside,

1038
00:45:45,980 --> 00:45:49,550
they used at least two
phrases to describe him.

1039
00:45:49,550 --> 00:45:51,200
They said he was raving mad

1040
00:45:51,200 --> 00:45:53,480
and they said he was
demon-possessed.

1041
00:45:53,480 --> 00:45:55,280
In his own estrangement,

1042
00:45:55,280 --> 00:45:57,920
Christ shared with
mentally ill persons today

1043
00:45:57,920 --> 00:45:59,570
the same judgments
that we sometimes

1044
00:45:59,570 --> 00:46:02,255
see in religious communities,

1045
00:46:02,255 --> 00:46:05,570
and even after his resurrection
on the road to, Emmaus,

1046
00:46:05,570 --> 00:46:08,659
Christ was not recognized
by his disciples.

1047
00:46:08,659 --> 00:46:11,165
This is a painting by Rembrandt,

1048
00:46:11,165 --> 00:46:13,670
and it's a painting
of Christ in Emmaus

1049
00:46:13,670 --> 00:46:16,520
as He seated around a
table with the disciples.

1050
00:46:16,520 --> 00:46:20,960
I love that Rembrandt has
put him in the shadows.

1051
00:46:20,960 --> 00:46:23,390
When I see this,
I think to myself

1052
00:46:23,390 --> 00:46:25,610
the truth is we never
really knew this man.

1053
00:46:25,610 --> 00:46:27,560
The disciples won't recognize

1054
00:46:27,560 --> 00:46:30,450
him and among us until
he breaks the bread.

1055
00:46:30,580 --> 00:46:36,155
In fact, I was thinking
about Christ's estrangement.

1056
00:46:36,155 --> 00:46:38,000
I was thinking about
the estrangements of

1057
00:46:38,000 --> 00:46:40,415
persons who have
mental illnesses,

1058
00:46:40,415 --> 00:46:41,840
and I began to think just about

1059
00:46:41,840 --> 00:46:45,680
how absolute and total
Christ desolation

1060
00:46:45,680 --> 00:46:47,780
and estrangement really was.

1061
00:46:47,780 --> 00:46:49,940
Jesus knew distress and may

1062
00:46:49,940 --> 00:46:52,490
end in a way that none
of us could ever know.

1063
00:46:52,490 --> 00:46:54,320
I want to read you
another section of

1064
00:46:54,320 --> 00:46:58,170
my paper about
this estrangement.

1065
00:46:58,300 --> 00:47:01,655
It was not only from
the religious leaders,

1066
00:47:01,655 --> 00:47:03,470
His disciples in his community,

1067
00:47:03,470 --> 00:47:05,975
the Christ experienced
estrangement.

1068
00:47:05,975 --> 00:47:08,570
Like the Old Testament
heroes who preceded him,

1069
00:47:08,570 --> 00:47:11,030
Job and Elisha and Naomi too,

1070
00:47:11,030 --> 00:47:13,325
Christ struggled with his God.

1071
00:47:13,325 --> 00:47:15,080
The Gospel writers do not

1072
00:47:15,080 --> 00:47:18,110
gloss over Christ
cry on the cross.

1073
00:47:18,110 --> 00:47:20,180
"My God, my God.

1074
00:47:20,180 --> 00:47:21,935
Why have you abandoned me?

1075
00:47:21,935 --> 00:47:23,690
"This cry of dereliction has

1076
00:47:23,690 --> 00:47:26,225
mystified theologians
from millennia.

1077
00:47:26,225 --> 00:47:28,910
What is the significance
of these words?

1078
00:47:28,910 --> 00:47:31,310
Did God abandoned God?

1079
00:47:31,310 --> 00:47:35,540
In the crucifixion did God
choose self-estrangement in

1080
00:47:35,540 --> 00:47:37,400
order to find us alone in

1081
00:47:37,400 --> 00:47:39,695
a stray and the
impossible ungod of this,

1082
00:47:39,695 --> 00:47:42,410
that we ourselves
had once grasped

1083
00:47:42,410 --> 00:47:45,650
when we rejected communion
with God in Paradise?

1084
00:47:45,650 --> 00:47:47,615
Did God then pursue us?

1085
00:47:47,615 --> 00:47:50,165
Self-made aliens
in the universe,

1086
00:47:50,165 --> 00:47:51,890
ultimately strangers even to

1087
00:47:51,890 --> 00:47:55,790
ourselves into our
wandering post-Eden exile.

1088
00:47:55,790 --> 00:47:59,780
Did God absorb the void between
creator and creature into

1089
00:47:59,780 --> 00:48:03,560
himself,so that even there
in this terrible rending,

1090
00:48:03,560 --> 00:48:08,510
we might still have the
hope of finding us?

1091
00:48:08,510 --> 00:48:11,990
Despite our desolation is

1092
00:48:11,990 --> 00:48:14,270
there a face looking
into our face?

1093
00:48:14,270 --> 00:48:16,070
Did God abandoned God to

1094
00:48:16,070 --> 00:48:18,935
reunite with us?
God abandoned us.

1095
00:48:18,935 --> 00:48:20,990
The Apostles Creed says of

1096
00:48:20,990 --> 00:48:23,360
Christ that he
descended into hell.

1097
00:48:23,360 --> 00:48:27,005
In a certain later confirmed
by two ecumenical councils.

1098
00:48:27,005 --> 00:48:30,570
What are we to make of
this remarkable claim?

1099
00:48:30,940 --> 00:48:33,950
Theologian Regis
Martin has written

1100
00:48:33,950 --> 00:48:35,870
quote," what if there were

1101
00:48:35,870 --> 00:48:38,045
a loneliness so
complete and final,

1102
00:48:38,045 --> 00:48:40,880
but nothing in this world
could remedy the sorrow of it,

1103
00:48:40,880 --> 00:48:43,070
and abandonment so
definitive that

1104
00:48:43,070 --> 00:48:45,905
neither word nor gesture
could deliver us from it.

1105
00:48:45,905 --> 00:48:48,080
Would not that frightful
condition find

1106
00:48:48,080 --> 00:48:50,959
its precise and formal
theological equivalent

1107
00:48:50,959 --> 00:48:53,430
in what we call help? "

1108
00:48:53,890 --> 00:48:56,450
Did the crucifixion alter

1109
00:48:56,450 --> 00:48:59,045
the spiritual structures
of the universe?

1110
00:48:59,045 --> 00:49:02,330
Is that if as the
Apostles Creed asserts,

1111
00:49:02,330 --> 00:49:04,700
Christ descended into hell is

1112
00:49:04,700 --> 00:49:07,220
even how the chasm
of all estrangement,

1113
00:49:07,220 --> 00:49:09,050
the crevice of ungod,

1114
00:49:09,050 --> 00:49:10,745
not outside of God,

1115
00:49:10,745 --> 00:49:13,445
but somehow present within
the Godhead itself,

1116
00:49:13,445 --> 00:49:16,505
in the person of the
Son who found us fair."

1117
00:49:16,505 --> 00:49:18,680
The Apostle John proclaims that

1118
00:49:18,680 --> 00:49:21,800
the risen Christ rests in
the bosom of the Father.

1119
00:49:21,800 --> 00:49:24,304
Are we who are now in Christ,

1120
00:49:24,304 --> 00:49:26,210
also within their nestled

1121
00:49:26,210 --> 00:49:28,685
in the hollow between
the heartbeats of God?

1122
00:49:28,685 --> 00:49:31,715
According to Father Gerald Vann,

1123
00:49:31,715 --> 00:49:34,745
"the history of mankind
is a love story.

1124
00:49:34,745 --> 00:49:36,920
It is a story of how
man was made for

1125
00:49:36,920 --> 00:49:39,665
God and then became
a strange from God.

1126
00:49:39,665 --> 00:49:43,340
But in the end, after many
struggles and many sorrows,

1127
00:49:43,340 --> 00:49:46,980
is to come back again
to God to be happy."

1128
00:49:47,140 --> 00:49:49,700
If mentally ill persons find

1129
00:49:49,700 --> 00:49:51,590
themselves estranged
abandoned by

1130
00:49:51,590 --> 00:49:53,150
the community around them into

1131
00:49:53,150 --> 00:49:55,730
stress and struggling
with their God.

1132
00:49:55,730 --> 00:49:57,785
Perhaps the scriptural testimony

1133
00:49:57,785 --> 00:49:59,420
is that in this estrangement,

1134
00:49:59,420 --> 00:50:02,285
they are paradoxically
not alone.

1135
00:50:02,285 --> 00:50:04,039
In the person of Christ,

1136
00:50:04,039 --> 00:50:06,470
God has taken a seat
with the estranged.

1137
00:50:06,470 --> 00:50:09,650
For the mentally ill person
and for all of humanity,

1138
00:50:09,650 --> 00:50:14,790
Christ is truly
Emmanuel, God with us.

1139
00:50:15,250 --> 00:50:17,420
I would like to end my lecture

1140
00:50:17,420 --> 00:50:19,565
tonight with this final comment.

1141
00:50:19,565 --> 00:50:22,670
At theology of mental
illness begins at the cross.

1142
00:50:22,670 --> 00:50:26,195
It begins with a God
who knows our distress,

1143
00:50:26,195 --> 00:50:27,410
who knows our frailty,

1144
00:50:27,410 --> 00:50:28,970
and who knows our estrangement.

1145
00:50:28,970 --> 00:50:38,270
[NOISE] I have many people to

1146
00:50:38,270 --> 00:50:41,315
thank both for their
coordination and

1147
00:50:41,315 --> 00:50:46,130
administrative leadership
in this evening's event

1148
00:50:46,130 --> 00:50:47,660
and also just for
providing me with

1149
00:50:47,660 --> 00:50:50,220
all kinds of support
along the way.

1150
00:50:58,510 --> 00:51:01,910
I just want to make one
comment about this slide.

1151
00:51:01,910 --> 00:51:05,750
The painting here is from
NARSED artworks and NARSED

1152
00:51:05,750 --> 00:51:07,970
stands for National
Association for Research on

1153
00:51:07,970 --> 00:51:09,875
Schizophrenia and
Effective Disorders.

1154
00:51:09,875 --> 00:51:13,190
This organization
sells cards and

1155
00:51:13,190 --> 00:51:17,765
posters with artwork by people
who have mental disorders.

1156
00:51:17,765 --> 00:51:20,220
Then this is one example.

1157
00:51:21,430 --> 00:51:23,990
Well, I understand that we have

1158
00:51:23,990 --> 00:51:25,340
some time for questions

1159
00:51:25,340 --> 00:51:27,570
or comments. [APPLAUSE].
[NOISE] Thank you.

1160
00:51:51,990 --> 00:51:56,035
I appreciate this idea
that essentially faith and

1161
00:51:56,035 --> 00:51:57,310
mental suffering or

1162
00:51:57,310 --> 00:51:59,935
psychological suffering
are contradictory.

1163
00:51:59,935 --> 00:52:01,375
I can't hear you.

1164
00:52:01,375 --> 00:52:03,610
Essentially you're
saying that faith and

1165
00:52:03,610 --> 00:52:07,310
disorder are not
mutually exclusive.

1166
00:52:07,500 --> 00:52:10,960
Does that make sense?

1167
00:52:10,960 --> 00:52:13,390
I'm not sure what
you're meaning by that.

1168
00:52:13,390 --> 00:52:16,825
You're saying I'm
not clarifying.

1169
00:52:16,825 --> 00:52:18,610
I guess I'm hearing you.

1170
00:52:18,610 --> 00:52:20,140
I have voice
problems, I'm sorry.

1171
00:52:20,140 --> 00:52:21,730
But I'm hearing you
say essentially,

1172
00:52:21,730 --> 00:52:24,295
give good examples
that people who have

1173
00:52:24,295 --> 00:52:26,140
real faith and
that real faith in

1174
00:52:26,140 --> 00:52:28,135
God can have
psychologically suffering.

1175
00:52:28,135 --> 00:52:28,435
Yeah.

1176
00:52:28,435 --> 00:52:30,160
Right. I'm wondering how do you

1177
00:52:30,160 --> 00:52:32,095
balance that reality
with another hand,

1178
00:52:32,095 --> 00:52:35,695
some of the data suggesting
that in some cases,

1179
00:52:35,695 --> 00:52:38,020
religious conviction, as well as

1180
00:52:38,020 --> 00:52:39,550
participation in
religious communities,

1181
00:52:39,550 --> 00:52:40,630
has a buffering effect

1182
00:52:40,630 --> 00:52:42,655
against things like
depression and anxiety.

1183
00:52:42,655 --> 00:52:44,950
Well, to have a buffering
effect doesn't mean

1184
00:52:44,950 --> 00:52:48,745
that it eliminates those things.

1185
00:52:48,745 --> 00:52:54,790
It may be that people who
have these disorders,

1186
00:52:54,790 --> 00:52:57,010
they are helped by
their religious faith,

1187
00:52:57,010 --> 00:53:00,410
but that doesn't mean it
removes their disorders.

1188
00:53:01,170 --> 00:53:04,075
It's a matter of range.

1189
00:53:04,075 --> 00:53:07,360
It may help a person
significantly

1190
00:53:07,360 --> 00:53:10,810
to manage their symptoms,

1191
00:53:10,810 --> 00:53:12,070
their life experience
but it doesn't

1192
00:53:12,070 --> 00:53:14,815
necessarily remove
their disorders.

1193
00:53:14,815 --> 00:53:16,150
That's what I would say and we

1194
00:53:16,150 --> 00:53:19,330
can't know what a person

1195
00:53:19,330 --> 00:53:20,995
would look like
without their faith.

1196
00:53:20,995 --> 00:53:23,560
You can't do that
experiment that way.

1197
00:53:23,560 --> 00:53:26,320
I do think that religious
faith helps people

1198
00:53:26,320 --> 00:53:29,680
tremendously but that doesn't

1199
00:53:29,680 --> 00:53:31,510
necessarily mean
that for all people,

1200
00:53:31,510 --> 00:53:33,040
for all times it will remove

1201
00:53:33,040 --> 00:53:35,480
possibility of their disorders.

1202
00:53:37,020 --> 00:53:39,700
That's true also, by the way,

1203
00:53:39,700 --> 00:53:42,940
religious faith has been
shown to be related

1204
00:53:42,940 --> 00:53:44,410
to lower rates of

1205
00:53:44,410 --> 00:53:46,540
mortality in different
types of illnesses,

1206
00:53:46,540 --> 00:53:48,910
but that doesn't mean that
people who have faith

1207
00:53:48,910 --> 00:53:51,640
don't get sick and die.

1208
00:53:51,640 --> 00:54:00,730
[BACKGROUND] Dirk. [LAUGHTER]

1209
00:54:00,730 --> 00:54:03,430
Thank you so much, especially,

1210
00:54:03,430 --> 00:54:06,070
for your statements
about people with

1211
00:54:06,070 --> 00:54:08,530
mental illness not needing

1212
00:54:08,530 --> 00:54:10,900
to see this as a result
of their personal sin.

1213
00:54:10,900 --> 00:54:13,990
I think it's so important
for people to understand.

1214
00:54:13,990 --> 00:54:18,670
I wonder though if you do
need to name sin that's

1215
00:54:18,670 --> 00:54:20,980
involved in our illness and
I'm thinking about this

1216
00:54:20,980 --> 00:54:23,350
as the systemic sins of racism,

1217
00:54:23,350 --> 00:54:27,370
patriarchy, oppression, poverty
that really do impinge a

1218
00:54:27,370 --> 00:54:32,365
lot and why people might
have mental illnesses.

1219
00:54:32,365 --> 00:54:36,955
You're not talking about the
personal sin of the person.

1220
00:54:36,955 --> 00:54:41,470
You're talking about a
person within a community.

1221
00:54:41,470 --> 00:54:45,640
Yeah. I would agree with that,

1222
00:54:45,640 --> 00:54:52,060
that there's vast
spiritual disharmony

1223
00:54:52,060 --> 00:54:54,910
in the universe and that

1224
00:54:54,910 --> 00:54:59,680
includes all sin in community
and that sin results in

1225
00:54:59,680 --> 00:55:01,600
all sorts of breakdown in the

1226
00:55:01,600 --> 00:55:05,440
physical and the psychological.

1227
00:55:05,440 --> 00:55:07,390
It is important
to name that sin.

1228
00:55:07,390 --> 00:55:11,840
Yeah. That's true.

1229
00:55:12,270 --> 00:55:16,270
You mentioned your commitment to

1230
00:55:16,270 --> 00:55:20,560
the church and criticizing
from the inside.

1231
00:55:20,560 --> 00:55:25,780
You see on the left side
the possibility from

1232
00:55:25,780 --> 00:55:27,580
the church as a
redemptive community

1233
00:55:27,580 --> 00:55:31,015
and constructive sense.

1234
00:55:31,015 --> 00:55:31,630
Yes, I do.

1235
00:55:31,630 --> 00:55:34,870
That implies to when the
process is mediated through

1236
00:55:34,870 --> 00:55:39,880
the room as well as
individual devotion class

1237
00:55:39,880 --> 00:55:41,350
Yes, Absolutely. In fact,

1238
00:55:41,350 --> 00:55:44,875
I think that's very important.

1239
00:55:44,875 --> 00:55:46,870
I did some research with

1240
00:55:46,870 --> 00:55:49,090
my colleague Kathy
Stetz and we looked

1241
00:55:49,090 --> 00:55:50,950
at messages about

1242
00:55:50,950 --> 00:55:53,560
mental illness in
Christian bestsellers.

1243
00:55:53,560 --> 00:55:55,210
Basically, they don't

1244
00:55:55,210 --> 00:55:56,380
talk about mental
illness in general,

1245
00:55:56,380 --> 00:55:58,405
they talk about depression

1246
00:55:58,405 --> 00:56:01,300
and they give
recommendations that are

1247
00:56:01,300 --> 00:56:06,490
just based on the individual's
own work to pray,

1248
00:56:06,490 --> 00:56:08,020
[NOISE] to worship on their own

1249
00:56:08,020 --> 00:56:09,760
but they don't talk
about what could happen

1250
00:56:09,760 --> 00:56:11,755
in a church community and how

1251
00:56:11,755 --> 00:56:13,420
church members can support each

1252
00:56:13,420 --> 00:56:16,130
other and how by all
that, that would be.

1253
00:56:17,130 --> 00:56:21,400
I serve in a small
urban church community

1254
00:56:21,400 --> 00:56:22,900
that I had noticed

1255
00:56:22,900 --> 00:56:25,630
has quite a mental illness and

1256
00:56:25,630 --> 00:56:29,170
I know that now more from
being on leadership.

1257
00:56:29,170 --> 00:56:32,995
If the church is a
redemptive community,

1258
00:56:32,995 --> 00:56:36,220
do have any practical
suggestions for

1259
00:56:36,220 --> 00:56:39,160
how you deal with
if someone who has

1260
00:56:39,160 --> 00:56:42,490
mental illness is in a
worship setting or in

1261
00:56:42,490 --> 00:56:44,590
an adult education setting

1262
00:56:44,590 --> 00:56:47,155
how you handle that
at that moment?

1263
00:56:47,155 --> 00:56:49,660
Well, actually, I think

1264
00:56:49,660 --> 00:56:52,750
the issue is when you
say at that moment.

1265
00:56:52,750 --> 00:56:55,675
The difficulty is churches
aren't really prepared

1266
00:56:55,675 --> 00:56:58,480
and so it's becomes something
that, oh my goodness,

1267
00:56:58,480 --> 00:57:00,625
something is happening
now as opposed to

1268
00:57:00,625 --> 00:57:03,595
being prepared,
having education,

1269
00:57:03,595 --> 00:57:06,280
even having some
ministry in place

1270
00:57:06,280 --> 00:57:08,980
that expects that these things

1271
00:57:08,980 --> 00:57:10,390
are going to happen
in the church.

1272
00:57:10,390 --> 00:57:11,710
That there will be
people who have

1273
00:57:11,710 --> 00:57:13,150
mental illnesses in the church,

1274
00:57:13,150 --> 00:57:15,010
rather than be surprised by it.

1275
00:57:15,010 --> 00:57:17,410
I think that education
is really important.

1276
00:57:17,410 --> 00:57:22,270
There's a great deal of
ignorance about mental illness.

1277
00:57:22,270 --> 00:57:24,010
There are ministries that are

1278
00:57:24,010 --> 00:57:26,065
going on around the Puget Sound

1279
00:57:26,065 --> 00:57:27,535
right now in different churches

1280
00:57:27,535 --> 00:57:30,340
by individuals who are
aware of these things.

1281
00:57:30,340 --> 00:57:32,154
I think that educating

1282
00:57:32,154 --> 00:57:34,780
the pastorate is
really important and

1283
00:57:34,780 --> 00:57:38,200
thereby setting up systems

1284
00:57:38,200 --> 00:57:39,550
where if something
were to happen,

1285
00:57:39,550 --> 00:57:41,395
there's already people in place,

1286
00:57:41,395 --> 00:57:42,805
they're a peer,

1287
00:57:42,805 --> 00:57:44,545
they're friends that they

1288
00:57:44,545 --> 00:57:46,450
can have people that
they can talk to,

1289
00:57:46,450 --> 00:57:47,830
people who they already know

1290
00:57:47,830 --> 00:57:49,240
before it comes to a
point where, oh my gosh,

1291
00:57:49,240 --> 00:57:51,850
something's happening in the
church where a person is

1292
00:57:51,850 --> 00:57:54,730
having difficulty
managing their symptoms.

1293
00:57:54,730 --> 00:57:59,080
So that's what I would suggest.

1294
00:57:59,080 --> 00:58:01,450
Other comments or questions?

1295
00:58:01,450 --> 00:58:04,930
I have the advantage of having
your full manuscript and

1296
00:58:04,930 --> 00:58:08,230
I'm aware of couple
[OVERLAPPING]

1297
00:58:08,230 --> 00:58:11,665
[LAUGHTER] other schemes
embraced in your theology

1298
00:58:11,665 --> 00:58:14,020
and actually should
you mind at least give

1299
00:58:14,020 --> 00:58:16,795
me a couple of sentences on
each those other things.

1300
00:58:16,795 --> 00:58:18,820
Powerless and frailty,

1301
00:58:18,820 --> 00:58:22,810
stranger is in our list
also freedom infinitude and

1302
00:58:22,810 --> 00:58:26,590
complexity and disorder
found in that theology.

1303
00:58:26,590 --> 00:58:28,390
Well when I say
freedom infinitude,

1304
00:58:28,390 --> 00:58:33,775
that's basically the idea
that we're limited beings and

1305
00:58:33,775 --> 00:58:36,475
potentially because of
the sin in community

1306
00:58:36,475 --> 00:58:40,570
and the fact that we're
just in a fallen world.

1307
00:58:40,570 --> 00:58:42,055
We're very limited beings

1308
00:58:42,055 --> 00:58:44,230
and each one of us
has our own limits,

1309
00:58:44,230 --> 00:58:46,030
but within those limits,

1310
00:58:46,030 --> 00:58:50,665
we have freedom and power and
it may take years for us to

1311
00:58:50,665 --> 00:58:52,660
develop those freedoms
and powers to be able

1312
00:58:52,660 --> 00:58:55,120
to overcome various
difficulties.

1313
00:58:55,120 --> 00:58:56,425
That's true for
all human beings.

1314
00:58:56,425 --> 00:58:58,150
In the situation
with mental illness,

1315
00:58:58,150 --> 00:59:00,475
it's so much more
complex, however.

1316
00:59:00,475 --> 00:59:02,320
Basically, that is
what I talked about,

1317
00:59:02,320 --> 00:59:04,420
how we are finite beings,

1318
00:59:04,420 --> 00:59:05,605
how we have limitations, but

1319
00:59:05,605 --> 00:59:07,885
within that, there is freedom.

1320
00:59:07,885 --> 00:59:09,250
One of the things that I think

1321
00:59:09,250 --> 00:59:10,750
about therapy sometimes is that

1322
00:59:10,750 --> 00:59:12,100
therapy is about
helping a person to

1323
00:59:12,100 --> 00:59:14,245
find their freedom
wherever it is.

1324
00:59:14,245 --> 00:59:16,030
That can be a little
bit challenging

1325
00:59:16,030 --> 00:59:17,590
sometimes when
you're dealing with

1326
00:59:17,590 --> 00:59:19,600
somebody where can they grab

1327
00:59:19,600 --> 00:59:22,300
a hold of something that they
can do to help themselves.

1328
00:59:22,300 --> 00:59:24,760
We start there and then move

1329
00:59:24,760 --> 00:59:26,305
progressively to

1330
00:59:26,305 --> 00:59:29,230
greater and greater
freedom, I would argue,

1331
00:59:29,230 --> 00:59:33,865
over time but there may also
be some limitations that

1332
00:59:33,865 --> 00:59:40,600
will never be ameliorated
or improved in this life.

1333
00:59:40,600 --> 00:59:45,535
That's freedom infinitude,
complexity in disorder.

1334
00:59:45,535 --> 00:59:49,480
This is basically the
notion that when we look at

1335
00:59:49,480 --> 00:59:55,330
mental illness, we see disorder.

1336
00:59:55,330 --> 00:59:57,400
Generally speaking,
because of this stigma,

1337
00:59:57,400 --> 00:59:58,870
we see something negative,

1338
00:59:58,870 --> 01:00:02,005
we see something problematic.

1339
01:00:02,005 --> 01:00:04,660
Yet there is beginning
research that's

1340
01:00:04,660 --> 01:00:07,210
starting to show that there

1341
01:00:07,210 --> 01:00:08,620
may be a relationship between

1342
01:00:08,620 --> 01:00:12,955
creative ability and
mental disorder.

1343
01:00:12,955 --> 01:00:14,950
There's been a number of
studies that I have done,

1344
01:00:14,950 --> 01:00:19,555
in the earlier studies had
more methodological problems,

1345
01:00:19,555 --> 01:00:22,810
but the later studies have
tried to address those.

1346
01:00:22,810 --> 01:00:24,400
What I talked about is how,

1347
01:00:24,400 --> 01:00:27,200
here are these
individuals who have

1348
01:00:27,470 --> 01:00:30,630
potentially genetic loading for

1349
01:00:30,630 --> 01:00:33,240
something that's very
important for society.

1350
01:00:33,240 --> 01:00:35,160
They have been cast to

1351
01:00:35,160 --> 01:00:36,660
the side, they've
been marginalized,

1352
01:00:36,660 --> 01:00:39,915
and yet what if they
carry genetic potential?

1353
01:00:39,915 --> 01:00:42,215
That's very important
for the rest of us.

1354
01:00:42,215 --> 01:00:43,720
Creative abilities.

1355
01:00:43,720 --> 01:00:45,820
I actually think this
research is just at

1356
01:00:45,820 --> 01:00:49,055
the very ground level.

1357
01:00:49,055 --> 01:00:51,520
They talk about creativity
and mental illness,

1358
01:00:51,520 --> 01:00:52,810
but what is creativity?

1359
01:00:52,810 --> 01:00:54,430
That's a huge area in and of

1360
01:00:54,430 --> 01:00:56,980
itself and we're starting
to see relationships.

1361
01:00:56,980 --> 01:00:58,270
I think if you start to see

1362
01:00:58,270 --> 01:00:59,800
relationships with
something so big

1363
01:00:59,800 --> 01:01:01,060
as creativity and you haven't

1364
01:01:01,060 --> 01:01:02,545
made the fine distinctions yet,

1365
01:01:02,545 --> 01:01:04,660
what will we
discover eventually?

1366
01:01:04,660 --> 01:01:07,960
When I talk about complexity
in disorder, basically,

1367
01:01:07,960 --> 01:01:11,650
I'm saying that
these individuals

1368
01:01:11,650 --> 01:01:12,970
are very important in society.

1369
01:01:12,970 --> 01:01:20,380
[LAUGHTER] I compare it to
a photographic negative.

1370
01:01:20,380 --> 01:01:22,120
If you have a
photographic negative,

1371
01:01:22,120 --> 01:01:24,280
you can still see what
would have been there,

1372
01:01:24,280 --> 01:01:26,080
that there's this
potential there.

1373
01:01:26,080 --> 01:01:29,200
Maybe it's thwarted in
mental illness but it still

1374
01:01:29,200 --> 01:01:32,875
emerges in the
genetic potential,

1375
01:01:32,875 --> 01:01:36,110
in society that's
still available.

1376
01:01:36,810 --> 01:01:40,150
Those are a couple of
other ideas of being.

1377
01:01:40,150 --> 01:01:42,580
What is the properties
of reality?

1378
01:01:42,580 --> 01:01:45,430
What I'm understanding is
what the definition of

1379
01:01:45,430 --> 01:01:52,162
mental illness is exactly not being
familiar with the gist of it so

1380
01:01:52,162 --> 01:01:54,160
In the examples you
gave, biblically,

1381
01:01:54,160 --> 01:01:57,800
what's the difference between
a mental disorder and

1382
01:01:57,800 --> 01:02:01,985
just despair over a situation?

1383
01:02:01,985 --> 01:02:04,295
A disorder is culturally

1384
01:02:04,295 --> 01:02:06,260
determined by not
only Russian culture,

1385
01:02:06,260 --> 01:02:08,150
a despair is a sign
of being compelled.

1386
01:02:08,150 --> 01:02:11,900
[LAUGHTER].

1387
01:02:11,900 --> 01:02:21,800
How would I know between the biblical and mental, that this
is arranged by an alternative to a mental illness disorder

1388
01:02:21,800 --> 01:02:24,890
versus just being bummed

1389
01:02:24,890 --> 01:02:26,120
out because you're going through

1390
01:02:26,120 --> 01:02:28,740
some really bad circumstances?

1391
01:02:29,200 --> 01:02:37,160
Well, what I try to do is say,

1392
01:02:37,160 --> 01:02:41,570
I'm not going to look
at biblical figures and

1393
01:02:41,570 --> 01:02:43,460
say this person or that
person has a mental illness

1394
01:02:43,460 --> 01:02:46,400
because I can't do that.

1395
01:02:46,400 --> 01:02:54,770
Yet I set up themes and the
theme had to do with heroism,

1396
01:02:54,770 --> 01:02:57,809
frail and frailty,
not about distress.

1397
01:02:58,180 --> 01:03:01,760
I don't think we can
know enough whether

1398
01:03:01,760 --> 01:03:06,185
or not biblical characters
from today's perspective,

1399
01:03:06,185 --> 01:03:08,660
would be considered to
have a mental illness.

1400
01:03:08,660 --> 01:03:10,010
If you're talking specifically

1401
01:03:10,010 --> 01:03:11,810
about clinical psychology and

1402
01:03:11,810 --> 01:03:13,130
how it determines
whether or not a person

1403
01:03:13,130 --> 01:03:14,900
has a mental illness,
it's not just distress.

1404
01:03:14,900 --> 01:03:17,825
It's also whether or not

1405
01:03:17,825 --> 01:03:22,490
it's the rarity or the
likelihood in the population.

1406
01:03:22,490 --> 01:03:25,370
It's a number of different
factors that are involved.

1407
01:03:25,370 --> 01:03:29,825
It's not just about distress.

1408
01:03:29,825 --> 01:03:33,575
I guess I'm having a hard
time coming at this.

1409
01:03:33,575 --> 01:03:35,690
When I show those
examples of distress,

1410
01:03:35,690 --> 01:03:38,240
I didn't mean to show them as
examples of mental illness.

1411
01:03:38,240 --> 01:03:42,395
But as contrary to
Stepford Christianity.

1412
01:03:42,395 --> 01:03:44,675
Stepford Christianity
doesn't necessarily

1413
01:03:44,675 --> 01:03:45,860
distinguish between despair,

1414
01:03:45,860 --> 01:03:48,980
anxiety, and mental
illness either.

1415
01:03:48,980 --> 01:03:52,550
I show those examples

1416
01:03:52,550 --> 01:03:54,140
in contrast at
Stepford Christianity,

1417
01:03:54,140 --> 01:03:54,920
but when I'm talking about at

1418
01:03:54,920 --> 01:03:56,285
that theology of mental illness,

1419
01:03:56,285 --> 01:03:58,475
I'm not necessarily saying

1420
01:03:58,475 --> 01:04:00,770
people in the Bible do or do
not have mental illnesses

1421
01:04:00,770 --> 01:04:01,880
because I don't think
that that's going to

1422
01:04:01,880 --> 01:04:02,990
be a fruitful way to

1423
01:04:02,990 --> 01:04:05,380
go. I don't know if
that helps at all.

1424
01:04:05,380 --> 01:04:18,100
I think that, maybe its
something to keep in my mind

1425
01:04:18,100 --> 01:04:18,850
Yes.

1426
01:04:18,850 --> 01:04:27,470
Isn't that part of this
particular despair

1427
01:04:30,060 --> 01:04:34,570
other disorders, there
is schizophrenia clearly

1428
01:04:34,570 --> 01:04:37,480
biological but
things that are in

1429
01:04:37,480 --> 01:04:45,805
a gray area between emotion
and something else.

1430
01:04:45,805 --> 01:04:49,525
Is that anything
you can comment on?

1431
01:04:49,525 --> 01:04:51,850
Well, for one thing,

1432
01:04:51,850 --> 01:04:54,940
I think I need to learn
more about acedia.

1433
01:04:54,940 --> 01:04:58,340
But I do think the
little that I've read,

1434
01:04:58,340 --> 01:04:59,960
I understand that
it has to do with

1435
01:04:59,960 --> 01:05:02,825
spiritual sloth or
a lack of caring,

1436
01:05:02,825 --> 01:05:07,760
which does seem different than
a diagnosis of depression.

1437
01:05:07,760 --> 01:05:10,670
I would say as well that
depression also has

1438
01:05:10,670 --> 01:05:11,960
biological components and it

1439
01:05:11,960 --> 01:05:14,645
has a genetic loading as well.

1440
01:05:14,645 --> 01:05:18,090
I don't know if we can
make those distinctions.

1441
01:05:20,530 --> 01:05:23,420
Can you clarify for us what you

1442
01:05:23,420 --> 01:05:25,820
think we should and

1443
01:05:25,820 --> 01:05:28,400
should not take from
Philippians Chapter 2?

1444
01:05:28,400 --> 01:05:29,690
From what?

1445
01:05:29,690 --> 01:05:32,990
From Philippians Chapter 2.

1446
01:05:32,990 --> 01:05:35,390
What specifically in
Philippians Chapter 2?

1447
01:05:35,390 --> 01:05:37,400
I have what you said

1448
01:05:37,400 --> 01:05:39,905
that Apostle Paul was

1449
01:05:39,905 --> 01:05:42,200
not saying that you
shouldn't be anxious,

1450
01:05:42,200 --> 01:05:45,020
you should always be good.

1451
01:05:45,020 --> 01:05:47,810
But that doesn't mean
that there could not

1452
01:05:47,810 --> 01:05:51,050
be depression if the
person had good faith.

1453
01:05:51,050 --> 01:05:54,725
What [OVERLAPPING] do we
understand from Paul?

1454
01:05:54,725 --> 01:05:57,920
What is he trying to
say in this chapter?

1455
01:05:57,920 --> 01:05:59,720
I think what you're
actually doing is

1456
01:05:59,720 --> 01:06:01,835
this is a question
of interpretation.

1457
01:06:01,835 --> 01:06:04,160
Because whenever you
look at the scriptures,

1458
01:06:04,160 --> 01:06:06,350
you're going to
have all scriptures

1459
01:06:06,350 --> 01:06:09,035
that seem to say
different things.

1460
01:06:09,035 --> 01:06:11,000
You could take one
scripture and say, well,

1461
01:06:11,000 --> 01:06:12,320
what do I take specifically from

1462
01:06:12,320 --> 01:06:13,925
this scripture or you could say,

1463
01:06:13,925 --> 01:06:15,380
all of these scriptures

1464
01:06:15,380 --> 01:06:19,085
together provide
information for me.

1465
01:06:19,085 --> 01:06:22,700
If you wrote a series
of letters over

1466
01:06:22,700 --> 01:06:25,310
a 10 or 20 year period about

1467
01:06:25,310 --> 01:06:26,630
your relationship
with someone in

1468
01:06:26,630 --> 01:06:28,730
your family that
was very difficult.

1469
01:06:28,730 --> 01:06:30,140
You might have one
letter that says I

1470
01:06:30,140 --> 01:06:31,640
can't stand this person.

1471
01:06:31,640 --> 01:06:33,200
Another letter that says

1472
01:06:33,200 --> 01:06:34,790
this is a difficult
relationship,

1473
01:06:34,790 --> 01:06:35,900
but I love this person.

1474
01:06:35,900 --> 01:06:37,550
Another letter that says
I really appreciate

1475
01:06:37,550 --> 01:06:40,850
that this person
did this for me.

1476
01:06:40,850 --> 01:06:44,360
If a historian,
many years later,

1477
01:06:44,360 --> 01:06:46,055
were looking back
on your letters

1478
01:06:46,055 --> 01:06:47,240
and they wanted to know about

1479
01:06:47,240 --> 01:06:48,350
your relationship
with this person,

1480
01:06:48,350 --> 01:06:50,030
they would go through
all of your letters.

1481
01:06:50,030 --> 01:06:51,500
If they just what
took one letter and

1482
01:06:51,500 --> 01:06:53,225
one statement from that letter,

1483
01:06:53,225 --> 01:06:56,095
they wouldn't get the full sense

1484
01:06:56,095 --> 01:06:59,695
of your relationship
with this person.

1485
01:06:59,695 --> 01:07:01,480
I think that's true
when we look at

1486
01:07:01,480 --> 01:07:03,490
the letters of Paul and we
look at the whole Bible.

1487
01:07:03,490 --> 01:07:06,040
If we think of the Bible
as God's many letters to

1488
01:07:06,040 --> 01:07:08,900
us we have to try to get

1489
01:07:08,900 --> 01:07:10,310
a comprehensive sense of

1490
01:07:10,310 --> 01:07:12,605
the scriptures and that
is very difficult to do.

1491
01:07:12,605 --> 01:07:15,450
I admit that that's
very difficult to do.

1492
01:07:15,820 --> 01:07:20,720
But I would say that
I would want to weigh

1493
01:07:20,720 --> 01:07:23,330
that verse from
Philippians with all of

1494
01:07:23,330 --> 01:07:26,585
the other verses that
Paul offers to us.

1495
01:07:26,585 --> 01:07:31,040
To have a sense of his full
message to us over time,

1496
01:07:31,040 --> 01:07:33,180
to all the churches.

1497
01:07:35,200 --> 01:07:36,950
That's my cue.
[LAUGHTER]. [APPLAUSE].

1498
01:07:36,950 --> 01:07:48,740
I

1499
01:07:48,740 --> 01:07:50,015
want to thank Dr. Webb.

1500
01:07:50,015 --> 01:07:51,170
Erik Erikson, one of

1501
01:07:51,170 --> 01:07:54,035
the forerunners of
clinical psychology,

1502
01:07:54,035 --> 01:07:58,610
dabbled between
psychology and sociology,

1503
01:07:58,610 --> 01:08:00,815
if you will, history
and psychology.

1504
01:08:00,815 --> 01:08:03,200
He talked about walking into

1505
01:08:03,200 --> 01:08:04,730
that dangerous place of what he

1506
01:08:04,730 --> 01:08:07,760
called the -psycho something.

1507
01:08:07,760 --> 01:08:13,025
I think that Dr. Webb walked
in that murky water of

1508
01:08:13,025 --> 01:08:16,580
psycho-theology or
theology psycho-

1509
01:08:16,580 --> 01:08:18,170
depending on [LAUGHTER]

1510
01:08:18,170 --> 01:08:20,600
your predilections of
where you want to begin.

1511
01:08:20,600 --> 01:08:22,520
She did it marvelously on

1512
01:08:22,520 --> 01:08:25,655
a very essential topic and
it becomes a theology,

1513
01:08:25,655 --> 01:08:29,165
a psycho theology, a
theo psychology of hope.

1514
01:08:29,165 --> 01:08:31,010
Thank you. President
Eaton will now

1515
01:08:31,010 --> 01:08:33,930
make the presentation
of the Weter medallion.

1516
01:08:36,400 --> 01:08:38,420
I can find it here.

1517
01:08:38,420 --> 01:08:45,950
[LAUGHTER] Marcia,

1518
01:08:45,950 --> 01:08:49,670
congratulations to
you and thank you

1519
01:08:49,670 --> 01:08:51,950
for serving our community

1520
01:08:51,950 --> 01:08:54,455
this evening in this
distinguished way.

1521
01:08:54,455 --> 01:08:57,515
I offer you this,

1522
01:08:57,515 --> 01:08:59,300
to Dr. Marcia Webb,

1523
01:08:59,300 --> 01:09:09,140
the Weter Faculty Award
for 2009 [APPLAUSE].

1524
01:09:09,140 --> 01:09:11,660
Congratulations.
Very proud of you.

1525
01:09:11,660 --> 01:09:12,440
Wonderful.

1526
01:09:12,440 --> 01:09:29,270
And here is your
sash to wear now.

1527
01:09:29,270 --> 01:09:30,980
Dr. Webb will now wear that at

1528
01:09:30,980 --> 01:09:33,680
commencement with 34
other individuals.

1529
01:09:33,680 --> 01:09:34,850
Well, not quite that many,

1530
01:09:34,850 --> 01:09:36,410
some have retired so they

1531
01:09:36,410 --> 01:09:38,465
won't be processing
but watch for that.

1532
01:09:38,465 --> 01:09:41,510
I told her to start
exercising her neck so that

1533
01:09:41,510 --> 01:09:44,735
it can carry the weight
of that burden around it.

1534
01:09:44,735 --> 01:09:46,790
You are now dismissed
and invited to

1535
01:09:46,790 --> 01:09:49,740
refreshments out in
the foyer. Thank you.